Sines v. Kessler Rush Transcript – Day 7: Samantha Froelich, Matt Heimbach
Charlottesville, VA – The lawsuit against leading white supremacist organizers and groups began trial on October 25, 2021 at the federal courthouse in Charlottesville, Virginia. Attorneys with civil rights nonprofit Integrity First For America are representing victims of racist attacks at the ‘Unite the Right’ rally in Charlottesville in August 2017.
Official Court Transcript [Courtesy: Integrity First For America] [Click HERE to Download .PDF]
1639753614-2021-nov-2-moon-sines-v-kessler-317cv72-cvl-jt-day7-finalAdditional Resources via Integrity First For America: Trial & Deposition Video Transcripts • Searchable Database of Plaintiff’s Trial Exhibits
Unicorn Riot’s rush transcript from the day’s proceedings is below. While the official court transcript is more comprehensive, UR’s live notes sometimes contain visual descriptions of elements not noted by the court reporter, including the visual appearance of exhibits shown at trial, movements of parties in the courtroom, and happenings in and around the courthouse.
NOTE: Rush transcripts are generated from Unicorn Riot’s live tweets posted in real-time while observing trial proceedings from inside the courthouse media room. Quotations and descriptions written here are not always precise verbatim quotes and sometimes use paraphrasing or shorthand to quickly capture and convey exchanges during court hearings. There may be some errors regarding details like jury numbers, exhibit numbers and dates as well as typos and missing punctuation. These rush transcripts do not capture every single moment, but are our attempt to provide the public with as much direct access to the trial as possible until full court transcripts are made publicly available at a later date.
Unite The Right On Trial:
Rush transcripts: Day 1 | Day 2 | Day 3 | Day 4 | Day 5 | Day 6 | Day 7 | Day 8 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 11 | Day 12 | Day 13 | Day 14 | Day 15 | Day 16
Read Unicorn Riot's live tweets from trial proceedings - Day 1 | Day 2 | Day 3 | Day 4 | Day 5 | Day 6 | Day 7 | Day 8 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 11 | Day 12 | Day 13 | Day 14 | Day 15 | Day 16 | Day 17 | Day 18 | Day 19
Day 7 – Nov 2, 2021 (Collected from this tweet thread)
Court in the 7th day of the ‘Sines v. Kessler’ Unite The Right lawsuit trial is getting going in Charlottesville today – Some discussion is being heard by Judge Moon from both sides re issues w the recorded deposition from former Identity Evropa member Samantha Froelich, who is also UTR organizer Eli Mosley’s ex-gf. Froelich’s video deposition will resume playing shortly.
Judge Moon asks defendants to not be repetitive when cross-examining witnesses – says yesterday’s questioning was too redundant and time-consuming
Judge Moon: you can show the plaintiffs have different views than you but you can’t try to convince them that they’re wrong and you’re right
Roberta Kaplan: Devin Willis was direct examined for about 1.5 hours, and was cross-examined for about 5 hours. If this continues we won’t finish trial by November 19
Judge Moon: Cantwell filed a motion to exclude depositions of Rousseau, Hopper, Griffin and Isaacs to him… motion was granted in part and denied in part earlier this year… in another filing Cantwell objected to deposition of Ms. Froelich being used against him…
Judge Moon: a month ago Mr. Cantwell sought to extend all discovery…12 months…. Just before trial… court told Mr. Cantwell that it was willing to sever the case and allow Cantwell the time he wants to prepare his ca…Mr. Cantwell then opposed severance and opted to proceed…the court has a hard time seeing any prejudice to him at this point… out of caution the court has barred use of certain depositions against Cantwell without a limited instruction…
Judge Moon: i have not ruled re: the Froelich deposition yet
Spencer: can I ask the court why Ms. Froelich isn’t available as a witness, why we’re watching a deposition?
Moon: I have no idea… the court only has subpoena power within a limited jurisdiction
Karen Dunn: especially because we have some Pro Se defendants, we are going to have some cross-examination of defense witnesses… just want to have the court remind the defendants that they can’t talk to witnesses during cross-examination
Joshua Smith: is there any reason that would be an issue?
Judge Moon: you can’t discuss the case with a witness while their testimony is going on… call the jury back
The jury for Sines v. Kessler is coming into court now
Judge Moon is telling the jury that some evidence in the case is limited to certain defendants, tells them that the Froelich deposition shouldn’t be considered with regard to Chris Cantwell but can be applied to the other defendants. The recording is resuming from yesterday now
Samantha Froelich Deposition Video, Continued
Court staff say they need 5 minutes to figure out problems with the video.. in the court media room just now the video was beginning to play with no audio
video got fixed – the deposition questioner is asking Samantha Froelich (former Identity Evropa women’s coordinator and membership coordinator and Eli Mosley’s ex) about use of phrases ‘sieg heil’ and ‘hail victory’, says Spencer & Mosley used often
Froelich says Identity Evropa members would often ask each other “did you see Kyle?” as a coy way of saying “sieg heil” in the open
Froelich says Eli Mosley wanted to exterminate Jewish people, saw them as “cockroaches.”
Asked about 2015 Charleston church shooter Dylann Roof, Froelich says people in Identity Evropa when she was a member was often referenced as “Saint Roof”…”he was revered as a martyr…”
Q: did you hear Eli Mosley discuss Dylann Roof?
Froelich: ..that he was a martyr for the cause, that you can’t pick your martyrs…. that Dylann Roof did what Eli wishes he could done…
Q: Have you heard the word ‘triggering’?… What does triggering mean?
Froelich: to say or do something in front or to someone that would elicit a negative memory or intense reaction to someone
Q:… to try to provoke a response from someone?
Froelich: yes
Q: and could it be a physical response as well as an emotional response?
Froelich: yes
Q: what does ‘communist’ refer to in the alt-right?
Froelich: in a broad stroke, the enemy, interchangable with ‘Jewish’ and ‘antifa’
Q: do you agree that ‘counter-protester’, ‘communist’ and ‘antifa’ were used interchangeably with reference to Unite the Right?
Froelich: yes
Q: were counter-protesters called ‘race traitors’?
Froelich: yes
Questioner is asking Samantha Froelich about the alt-right’s use of the ‘OK’ sign – “what did that signify…?”
Froelich: it was a dogwhistle that you were one of them… you would start to say words to see if they caught on… and if they returned it that indicated they were of the alt-right mindset
Froelich tells the questioner on the recording that terms like “globalist” and “communist” were a dogwhistle stand-in for talking about Jewish people as the enemy
Froelich is asked about ‘ZOG’, a nazi conspiracy term standing for ‘Zionist Occupational Government’ aka the idea that Jewish people control everything
Froelich is shown a copy of the Daily Stormer style guide, says she recognizes it because she’s seen it before – Eli Mosley showed me that in our apartment in summer 2017, he would ghostwrite for a lot of alt-right publications
Froelich: If you were going to write a piece and publish it, this was typically the tone and what you would use to guide you in terms of writing it
Q: do you mean a piece that focused on white nationalist advocacy?
Froelich: yes
Questioner asks Froelich to focus on page 9 of the style guide w a section titled “Lulz” – “The tone of the site should be lite. Most people are not comfortable with material that comes across as vitriolic..the unindoctrinated should not be able to tell if we are joking or not..”
Q: is that concept that is described under ‘Lulz’ something that you had heard before during your time in Identity Evropa?
Froelich: these general ideas, yes… during this time there was a lot of meme culture and ppl that were trying to understand what the alt-right was… you were often told “they’re just jokes, we don’t really mean these things…but you start to realize that they aren’t jokes, its a cover, it’s how you get away with saying what you actually think is by using a light tone when you say it…” – Froelich
Froelich: “when you first join the alt-right you see a lot of jokes and edgy humor and you’re told to ignore it… before you know it… you become completely immune and desensitized to it… and later you ….are… buying in to what these people are saying…” -Froelich
its a way to say as heinous… things as they can and get away with it…”
Q: why were these things discussed in form of jokes?
Froelich: to make it palatable
Q: was it actually a joke or was it for the purpose of plausible deniability?
Froelich: plausible deniability, its a cover
Q: did you discuss this concept of plausible deniability with anybody within the alt-right? Who?
Froelich: many people, Eli [Mosley]
Q: did you have a Discord account and did you see what was posted on Discord?
Froelich: yes
Q: and was this tactic we’re discussing something you saw posted on Discord?
Froelich: yes
Q: when were you on Discord?
Froelich: throughout 2017
Q: and how did you become aware of Discord?
Froelich: during my interview with IE
Q: who told you about it?
Froelich: Reinhard Wolff [Patrick Casey]
Q: What was your screen name?
Froelich: norah fox
Q: How did you refer to Mr. Mosley/Kline when you knew him?
Froelich: Eli
Q: how did you first meet him?
Froelich: ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ in May 2017… we started dating in 2017… it became romantic
Froelich lived with Eliott Kline in Greenville, SC then moved to Leesburg, VA. He moved into her apartment in Greenville in June 2017
Froelich & Kline stopped living together “Thanksgiving weekend 2017”
Q: did Mr. Kline express to you his views about Jewish people?
Froelich: “he said he was an unironic exterminationist…he worked HR for an exterminator company and said he wished he killed Jews instead of cockroaches… he wished he was killing Jewish people…”
Q: how often would Mr. Kline express those sorts of views to you?
Froelich: every day
Q: what was your impression of his demeanor?
Froelich: a combination of pride and excitement…
Q: You used the phrase ‘unironic exterminationist’ – was that your phrase or Mr. Kline’s?
Froelich: Mr. Kline’s
Questioner is asking Froelich about Eliott Klines use of anti-semitic slurs and talking about wanting to put people in ovens, talking often about “wanting to oven” people
CONTENT ADVISORY – RACISM
Questioner pulls up an exhibit that is a screenshot of a Discord chat called “NiggKike Bar Mitzvah” – a message from Eli Mosley refers to himself as the ‘Judenjagers’ – which translates as ‘Jew hunter’
Q: did you hear Mr. Mosley use the phrase ‘Judenjagers’?
Froelich: he referred to himself as that, he said it to many people
Q: so you heard Mr. Kline refer to himself as ‘Jew hunter’ in German?
Froelich: yes
Q: what did Mr. Kline say about Black people?
Froelich: there’s a term for Black people in the alt-right called ‘dindu’ – referring to if a Black child is killed by the police the mother goes on TV and says “he didn’t do nothing.” He would not refer to them as people… hated them only slightly less than Jewish people
What sort of things would Mr. Kline say about violence towards African-Americans?
Froelich: he would show me pictures of lynchings and joke about it
Q: do you recall anyone else being present when Mr. Kline would express his views about violence towards Jewish people?
Froelich: he would talk about it at parties, he would talk about it a lot with people
Q: did you see Mr. Kline and Richard Spencer together?
Froelich: yes
Q: did you ever see Mr. Kline speak about violence towards Jewish people while Mr. Spencer was present?
Froelich: yes
Q: where?
Froelich: usually at Spencer’s apartment
Samantha Froelich says she also heard Eliott Kline speak about violence against Black people in Richard Spencer’s apartment
Q: did Mr. Kline ever express to you how be believed an ethnostate would be acheived?
Froelich: through violence
Q: did you ever hear Mr. Kline discuss the concept of RaHoWa? What did you hear him say about it?
Froelich: oftentimes he would say he needed to change his diet… to prepare for it… in his mind it was bound to happen…
Froelich: Eli was convinced November 4, 2017 would be the start of RaHoWa… told us all to call out of work… he was convinced that RaHoWa was bound to start sometime soon
Q: are you familiar w what is referred to as ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ – what is that?
Froelich: a rally planned by a few ppl in Identity Evropa… it was meant to protest the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue in Charlottesville
Q: did you have any involvement in planning ‘Charlottesville 1.0.’?
Froelich: I got an AirBnB for myself and a few people coming with me to the rally…I participated in the rally
Froelich: i went w several ppl from the Carolinas area including Eliott Kline… Richard Spencer was there
Q: when did you arrive in Charlottesville for the ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ rally?
Froelich: Friday night, May 12
Q: was there a march of sorts at ‘Charlottesville 1.0’… can you describe the march?
Froelich: the march took place after the daytime rally
Froelich: the march took place at night… we got there Friday night and practiced formations… they would make a few military calls and we would form accordingly…
Q: the march, when you refer to the march, what are you referring to?
Froelich: at nighttime, men had tiki torches, women had candles, we marched through the city… we chanted ‘Blood and Soil’, ‘Russia is our Friend’, ‘You Will Not Replace Us’, ‘Jews Will Not Replace Us’
Q: what does You Will Not Replace Us mean?
Froelich: that Jewish people are encouraging interracial couples… that everyone who is not white will not replace white people
Q: you said the men marched w torches & the women marched w candles, what do you understand as the significance of torches?
Froelich: its the “aesthetic of the Golden Dawn, a Greek far right-party… it was also the easiest way to do it, to look intimidating”
Q: do you remember discussion of Charlottesville 2.0 taking place at Charlottesville 1.0?
Froelich: yes
Q: Was Mr. Spencer at Charlottesville 1.0?
Froelich: yes
Q: was there an incident where Mr. Spencer would lead a group in some kind of nazi conduct?
Froelich: yes, this would happen quite often.. a ‘hail victory’ call and response with a nazi salute
Froelich describes hooking up with Richard Spencer during the weekend of Charlottesville 1.0 and says they “continued speaking… we carried on a relationship”
Q: what was the nature of the relationship…?
Froelich: a lot of it had to do with things that Eli or Richard wanted done or the inner workings of alt-right stuff… at times it was flirtatious, I was very lonely at the time
Q: how often did you communicate w him?
Froelich: at the beginning it was daily then became further apart
Q: what did Mr. Spencer say to you about Jewish people?
Froelich: that they’re dirty, disgusting, filthy… trying to subvert white people, white heritage… that they promoted degeneracy…
Q: what did Mr. Spencer say to you about Black people?
Froelich: that it’s because of white altruism that Black people have any say….that white ppl gave it away… and that they need to take it back…
Q: take what back?
Froelich: to take back the supremacy… of society
Q: and how did Mr. Spencer believe that white people should take the supremacy back from Black people?
Froelich: by any means necessary
Q: did he use that phrase?
Froelich: yes
Q: did he say that Black people and white people are not inherently equal?
Froelich: yes… at least once a week
Q: how did Spencer perceive his role in the alt-right?
Froelich: …”he told me that this was the closest to being L. Ron Hubbard and creating his own religion that he was gonna get…he bragged about the fact that ppl saw him as a god… that young people worshipped him…women wanted him.he was very interested in remaining the head, the voice, the face… of the alt-right…”
Froelich: Eli [Mosley] said he was making IE [Identity Evropa] “a militia for Richard Spencer”
Q: what did Mosley say he meant by that?
Froelich: he said that the movement had enough thinkers and needed more doers… he also said that he would kill Richard and take over all of it… but said that he was willing to make an army for Richard
Froelich: he believed that himself, Richard Spencer, the older-generation of the alt-right… were laying the groundwork of thought… and needed people to start taking action… running for political office, killing minorities, participating in RaHoWa… doing things
Q: are you familiar w ‘Charlottesville 2.0’ aka Unite The Right?
Froelich: yes
Q: when did you first become aware of plans for Unite The Right?
Froelich: last weekend of May, first weekend June, Jason Kessler posted about it in a Discord server that I was in
Questioner pulls up a message from the ‘Charlottesville 2.0’ Discord server – she calls it “the chat server that anyone attending the Charlottesville rally, the Unite The Right rally, could go in and coordinate…”
[This is the message that was just on the screen in court]
Froelich says Mosley saw Unite The Right as “his chance to lead white people into battle… in his mind this was the start of RaHowa… a modern civil war, and he was going to lead the troops”
Q: Mr. Kline told you that in his mind Charlottesville 2.0 was to be the start of RaHoWa?
Froelich: if not the start, then one of the battles
Q: he told you that he wanted Charlottesville 2.0… to be at least the first battle in a racial holy war?
Froelich: yes
Q: how many times… did Mr. Kline say to you in some respect that he wanted to lead the troops into battle at Unite The Right?
Froelich: at least 3 times if not more than that
Froelich: he was confident that it happened… he was looking forward to it… he wanted it
Q: did Mr. Kline ever say anything violent in reference to Jews in reference to Unite The Right?
Froelich: he said he couldn’t wait to crush Jews, to stomp Jews [at Unite The Right]
Q: did he say he wanted ‘right wing death squads’ at Unite The Right?
Froelich: he didn’t say he wanted them there, he said they would be there
Q: were you at planning events in person for Unite The Right?
Froelich: yes, there were a lot of “pool parties” where it was discussed
Q: can you tell us about one in particular?
Froelich: there was one after a free speech rally in Washington, DC, everyone went back to Richard Spencer’s apartment in Alexandria… this was gonna be the start of a juggernaut of the alt-right taking over
Q: do you recall Unite The Right being discussed at one of these parties… what do you recall was being said regarding Unite The Right at Richard Spencer’s home in summer 2017?
Froelich: talks of what weapons could be used… what should people wear, what should people say, what can people bring
Froelich: things that you could bring that if you were caught with it it could be a defensive weapon… bring a flagpole… poke holes in your flagpole so you can hit faster.. .bring a heavier one so you can hit harder…things like that
Q: do you recall any other violence at Unite The Right being discussed at Richard Spencer’s house in summer 2017?
Froelich: at another party at Richard Spencer’s house… someone had brought up… that somewhere that if you were on your way to work in your car and there was a protest or a rally taking place… that forever reason you could hit the protester and the law would be on your side
Q: “you were present at a party in Richard Spencer’s home in the summer of 2017 where someone was discussing whether it was legal to run over counter-protesters?”
Froelich: yes
Q: was Richard Spencer present at that party?
Froelich: yes
Q: Was Eli Mosley present at that party?
Froelich: yes
Q: “was it your impression that that discussion took place in the context of discussing what was legal to do at Unite The Right?”
Froelich: yes
Q: do you recall specifically who said that?
Froelich: no
Q: do you recall how many ppl were present for that discussion?
Froelich: no, maybe a handful
Q: you used the phrase ‘you could hit them’, what did you mean by that?
Froelich: that if there was a counter-protester in the street that you could use your vehicle to hit them
Q: to run into them?
Froelich: yes
Q: did you attend Unite The Right?
Froelich: no
Q: why not
Froelich: I worked
Q: were you concerned about violence at Unite The Right?
Froelich: yes… there were so many reasons I was cocnerned
Q: did you discuss that with anyone?
Froelich: yes… with other women I planned the after party with… I had said I hoped the city would shut it down
Q: did you speak w Mr. Kline after Unite The Right… what did he say to you..?
Froelich: he had this thing where he would like to talk about himself in the 3rd person – “your boyfriend is smart”, your boyfriend is this… when we finally spoke he said “your boyfriend is a war hero” …said he fought someone… that it was a success overall… that he was doing it, that he was leading people…. he was thrilled with himself” -Froelich
Froelich says she left the alt-right and Identity Evropa in October 2017
Q: are you associated with any organizations that do de-radicalization work?
Froelich: I am in Life After Hate
Karen Dunn (plaintiff attorney) is moving in certain exhibit that were shown on the screen during Froelich’s video deposition
Judge Moon says a 20 min recess will happen now… some discussion re evidence likely happening soon w the jury out of the toom
Morning Break
Judge Moon is commenting about the cross-examination of Froelich on the deposition recording… sounds like defense lawyers were present and asked her Qs that were recorded and certain clips will be played to serve as cross examination of Froelich before the jury
Judge Moon is back in court, tells court staff to call the jury back in
The jury is back in
Matt Heimbach (Defendant) Testimony
Plaintiffs call defendant Matthew Heimbach as a witness
Heimbach is being sworn in
Karen Dunn (plaintiffs’ attorney): You were the founder and chairman of the Traditionalist Worker Party also referred to as TWP or TradWorker… in 2017 you considered yourself to be a white nationalist… and national socialists… How many members did TWP have in 2017?
Heimbach: between members and affiliates, several hundred
Dunn: did TWP keep a membership list with people’s names on it?
Heimbach: I believe so yes
Dunn: TWP was governed by the principles of Adolf Hitler’s national socialist party, correct?
Smith: objection
Heimbach: we had our own unique 25-point program dedicated to… [goes on]… there were various parties we took inspiration from..
Dunn: my Q is…
Smith: objection
Dunn: partially inspired by Adolf Hitler, yes?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: In 2017 you looked up to Hitler as an inspiration?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: and you consider the word Nazi to be a slur?
Heimbach: yes going back to the 20s its an insult to national socialists
Dunn: TWP members would salute you with a nazi salute?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: and instead of Heil Hitler what would they say?
Heimbach: Heil Heimbach
Dunn pulls up a tweet from an April 2017 rally in Pikeville, Kentucky of a nazi crowd gathering while chanting “Heil Heimbach”
Dunn is asking Heimbach about his own incomplete “white juche” manuscript that she compared to Mein Kampf (Juche is a term for ‘self-reliance’ used by the North Korean govt)
Dunn is reading excerpts from Heimbach’s ‘white juche’ manuscript describing his journey into embracing “white nationalism” and “breaking out of… normal conservative” thinking and came to admire Hitler.
Dunn: You even talk here about how when your newborn son opened his eyes for the first time your first thought was about Adolf Hitler
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: let’s talk about the lead up to August 2017… we just saw the Pikeville, Kentucky rally, that was the annual event for the National Socialist Movement… that’s defendant Jeff Schoep’s group…
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: another person at the Pikeville event was Michael Hill, he leads the League of the South… you know Hill since 2011 since you used to be a member of the League of the South
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: Mr Cantwell told the jury “I really don’t know my codefendants”… that’s not true as to you is it, you knew Mr. Cantwell…and introduced him at the Pikeville event?
Heimbach: I had only met him in passing
Dunn: do you remember introducing him to the crowd?
Heimach: yes
Dunn shows a post from Cantwell on Twitter from May 3, 2017 showing Matt Heimbach and Chris Cantwell together – Cantwell wrote “How I Started Hanging Out with Nazis”
Dunn: …you did already know each other?
Heimbach: yes I had met Mr. Cantwell previously to Charlottesville
Dunn: another person who was at this Pikeville meeting was Dillon Hopper.. he was the leader of Vanguard America
Dunn shows a picture of Heimbach and Hopper together at the Kentucky gathering
Dunn points out the two are doing a ‘nazi salute’ in the photo
Joshua Smith objects to use of the term ‘nazi’ saying ‘nazi’ is a ‘slur’ and its “actually a Roman salute”
Dunn points out Heimbach and Hopper were holding a fasces, an axe w sticks around it – a fasces is a symbol of fascism but has prior historical use
Dunn is talking now about another document Heimbach wrote quoting nazi Joseph Goebbels saying “whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state…”
Dunn shows a post Heimbach made on Gab – describes Gab as “being used among others by white supremacists”
Joshua Smith objects to use of the term “white supremacist”, Judge Moon sustains the objection and calls Dunn ‘argumentative” and orders her to use a “non-pejorative term such as white nationalist”
Heimbach wrote “we must march, we must take public space, we must push our enemies off the streets” in the Gab post
Dunn moves on to asking Heimbach about attending the ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ event on May 13, 2017 – shows a photo of him w Kline, Spencer, Damigo and others holding an Identity Evropa banner in Cville on that date
Dunn is asking Heimbach about the torch march on the evening of May 13, 2017 and a private afterparty “generally only attended by white nationalists” held after the torch event
Dunn shows Heimbach a Discord post showing Heimbach with his arms around Richard Spencer and Mike ‘Enoch’ Peinovich (a neo-nazi organizer, podcaster and former defendant in this case who got himself dropped from the suit). Peinovich & Heimbach are making the ‘ok’ sign
Asked by Dunn to explain the ‘ok’ hand sign, Heimbach says its a “joke” intended to mock the media
Dunn: so you posted this in a private Discord chat so the media would see it?
Dunn: do you remember what Mr. Spencer said in his ‘pep talk’ that night?
Heimbach: I believe he said ‘hail victory’ at the end
Dunn pulls up an exhibit
Dun plays the exhibit, a video of May 13 ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ attendees at the party chanting ‘sieg heil’ while making nazi salutes. Dunn shows a screenshot from the video and has Heimbach point himself and Richard Spencer out in the photo
Spencer is making a “hell yeah” type of face while he and the rest of the group are making nazi salutes. Josh Smith defense counsel again objects to saying “nazi salutes”
Dunn is asking Heimbach about Discord, Heimbach agrees he was in the ‘Charlottesville 2.0‘ chat server as well as the Traditionalist Worker Party Discord server which was called Tradworker
The ‘Tradworker’ Discord chat logs can be browsed and searched in our #DiscordLeaks database here (some more materials in discovery/evidence for this lawsuit may not necessarily be included)
Cantwell: I want to object to any Discord posts from people we can’t identify, I believe that’s hearsay
[Leaked Discord chats sent by Matt Heimbach can be browsed here]
Dunn is currently discussing messages Heimbach sent in the ‘Charlottesville 2.0‘ chat and says “defendants have stipulated to the authenticity of these documents”
Dunn: these are conversations the defendants were all in as part of the planning…the witness also just testified that this server, the Traditionalist Worker Party server, was one he posted in in the run up to Unite The Right
Judge Moon overrules objections to showing Discord materials
Dunn: somebody named Kombat-Unit says “let’s be real here, we’re very for certain terrorists”?… who is Kombat-Unit in real life?
Heimbach: I’m not sure…
Dunn asks Heimbach about Kombat-Unit’s post specifically praising Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, cites other Discord posts where former Vanguard America leader Dillon Hopper and Heimbach himself discuss wanting to kill Jews while using anti-semitic slurs
[Leaked Discord chats from former Vanguard America leader Dillon Hopper – username ‘White-PowerStroke(Dillon)’ can be seen here]
Dunn has Heimbach read out this Discord post he made about “the total destruction of Jewry”:
Josh Smith (Heimbach’s lawyer and a known anti-semite himself) is aggressively interrupting and objecting to most of Dunn’s mentions of the Discord chats
Dunn asks Heimbach about a post he made on Valentine’s Day… Smith objects, “why are we talking about Valentine’s Day” to which Dunn replies “it’s the date he posted it”
Dunn says the chats are important to show “these are Mr. Heimbach’s own beliefs…”
Dunn quotes another Discord post from Heimbach where he expresses intense hatred for Jewish people. When asked Heimbach tried to clarify his hate was just for the “organized Jewish community”
Dunn was about to play another video exhibit, defense counsel is objecting saying they haven’t seen it
Dunn: “we are only introducing the comments that the defendants in this case made…”
Dunn plays the video, which shows Heimbach and codefendant Matt Parrott standing at a neo-nazi protest as Heimbach yells “the day of the rope is coming” while Parrott holds a sign showing a person being hung from a rope
Dunn is walking Heimbach through agreeing with an explanation of the “day of the rope” being a phrase from the Turner Diaries, Heimbach seems happy at the chance to get into nerdy details about the Diaries
Dunn: the author of the Turner Diaries, who is that?
Heimbach: Dr. William Luther Pierce
Dunn: In August 2017 is it true that you believed white people who married black people & had children are race traitors?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn shows June 2017 messages from the Tradworker Discord chat. Defense counsel Bryan Jones complains he hasn’t seen them, needs time to look
Jones: no objection
Dunn: Mr. Heimbach, in this Discord post…you and others including Kombat-Unit are discussing a young potential new member of the white nationalist movement…
Heimbach in the chat: “he’s young, new to the movement” and Kombat-Unit wrote “he’ll come around to RaHowa-ism“
[The messages and conversation in question can be seen here]
Dunn starts asking Heimbach about the etymology of the phrase RaHowa (racial holy war) and its origins w the group Aryan Nations, Smith objects
Heimbach is trying to say that his comments were a joke
Dunn: my question… is whether when he writes “we all do” come around to RaHowa.. he’s referring to white nationalists?
Heimbach: yes, within the context I previously expressed
Dunn: these posts are made on June 17, 2017 which is just two months before ‘Charlotteville 2.0’ is that correct?
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: Jason Kessler reached out to you to plan what became known as ‘Charlottesville 2.0’…
Heimbach: yes
Dunn shows a May 22, 2017 text exchange between Heimbach and Kessler.
5.22.17 texts between Jason Kessler and Matt Heimbach:
Heimbach: can’t talk, text me
Kessler: Hey Matt, this is Jason Kessler, I’d like to organize another much larger event in Cville later this summer. I’d like to invite you and pick your brain about how to conceive this thing
Heimbach: sounds great, I’m at work right now, wanna chat tomorrow?
Kessler: Supposedly the KKK are trying to hold a Cville event in July. I think that will hurt the overall pro-white message. Can we convince them to come in plain clothes to the August thing instead?
Heimbach: let’s set the dress code now, khakis and a polo
Dunn asks Heimbach about various groups such as Identity Evropa using the khakis and polo uniform, asks if TWP used black uniforms bc black “could hide blood”, Heimbach says the uniform was chosen for being “typical working class attire”
Dunn pulls up part of Heimbach’s deposition
“page 622, lines 7-25” Dunn says
Judge Moon: are you impeaching him w the deposition?
Dunn: yes
Heimbach: you asked ‘one of the reasons’ that we chose that uniform and as we just said there were multiple reasons we chose that uniform
In the deposition Heimbach transcript read quickly by Dunn just now Heimbach did say it was “not a good look” for blood to be visible and that was part of why black was chosen for the TWP uniform
Dunn: you agreed w Mr. Kessler that you would bring TWP members to the event?
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: he also asked you to reach out to the groups…such as the Hammerskins.. and the Blood and Honour Social Club?
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: Kessler specifically asked you to invite these groups because he knew they would be violent, correct?
Heimbach: I don’t recall
Dunn pulls up transcript from Heimbach’s depositions where he described these groups as “rough around the edges” – Heimbach’s lawyer Joshua Smith disputes this as a characterization of “violent”
Dunn: your answer was ‘that have a reputation perhaps of being rough and tumble, rough around the edges, yes”…
Dunn: and you did reach out to those skinhead groups… knowing at the time about their reputations?
Heimbach: i believed he wanted to invite organizations that would have a deterrent effect
Dunn: so your reason for inviting violent, I’m sorry, rough and tumble, groups, was to make the event less violent?
Heimbach: yes, to have a deterrent effect
Dunn:.. that ppl would see the skinhead groups and be frightened?
Heimbach: not frightened.. but they would be less likely to assault members of the Hammerskins than college students in white polos… thereby reducing the chances of violence
Dunn pulls up the image of Eli Mosley and the Identity Evropa logo shown in opening arguments, asks Heimbach about his comms w Kline. Heimbach says “Mr. Kline was in many ways the chief organizer”
Dunn: you’re aware that Mr. Kessler and Mr. Kline worked very closely together… to plan the Charlottesville 2.0 event?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: And you’ve known Matthew Parrott for a long time… you consider him to be your best friend… you were both involved in the Traditionalist Youth Network in 2015… and you were formerly married to his former wife…you spoke to him every day in summer 2017?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: even though he was your best friend and you spoke w him every day for the summer of 2017, you did not produce any texts between you and him for discovery in this case?
Heimbach: yes, my wife threw out my phone
Dunn: there’s no records of your verbal communications or written communications w Mr. Parrott about Charlottesville 2.0, is that correct?
Heimbach: we did not keep records of our in person conversations
Dunn: the Nationalist Front is an organization or an alliance that you know about…
Heimbach: a broad coalition
Dunn: it was originally called the Aryan National Alliance…?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: the Nationalist Front was a coalition of groups… w shared principles… and there was an entrance exam… we’re going to show you exhibit PX-2781… do you recognize this as the Nationalist Front website?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: it says that “the Nationalist Front is not an organization in and of itself.. its’s an alliance of organizations.. only open to organizations that struggle for white nationalist… leaders were encouraged to join toe Nationalist Front to pool manpower, resources…”
Dunn is showing the jury a chart of organizations involved in the Nationalist Front – the League of the South, the National Socialist Movement (NSM), Traditionalist Worker Party and Vanguard America.
Heimbach nitpicks that the NSM didn’t use the swastika at the time as shown on the plaintiffs’ chart
Dunn: Dillon Hopper… who on Discord was known as WhitePowerStroke(Dillon).. he was… during some part of the planning for ‘Charlottesville 2.0’ the leader of Vanguard America… and then an individual named Thomas Ryan Rousseau took over…Vanguard America?
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: you invited the Vanguard America members to Charlottesville 2.0?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: did you personally invite other groups than Vanguard America, Hammerskins, Blood and Honour?
Heimbach: i reached out to the Golden Dawn in Greece… they did not attend
Dunn: did you recall whether somebody asked you to invite the National Socialist Movement or did you do that on your own?
Heimbach: I don’t recall
Dunn pulls up PX-635, a Discord post by Heimbach in the lobby of the Tradworker Discord server on June 5, 2017 that says “Alright y’all, August 12th is going to be a full call out for all our members“
In the same Discord convo, Dillon Hopper responds “mind if we join in?” and Heimbach replies “Good stuff!… i was planning on calling you btw… lol… It wouldnt be a party without you and your boys“
Dunn: the posts we just looked at were from June 5th of 2017…
Bryan Smith delays and objects saying he hasn’t read them…
Dunn: these exhibits have been on the record for years
Dunn: so that was on June 5, 2017 – on that same day you separately had a private conversation w Dillon Hopper…
6/5/17 private Discord DM convo between Matt Heimbach & Dillon Hopper:
Heimbach: We wanna do a monthly call between you, me, Jeff [Schoep] and Dr. [Michael] Hill… because the League is now onboard
Hopper: oh snap, sick
Heimbach: so now basically we’ve got 90 percent of all the real orgs in America together, with the leadership being you, me, Jeff, and Dr Hill
Hopper: now all we need is Spencer and Damigo
Heimbach: this is where Charlottesville comes in, we’re all doing it together
Dunn pulls up a June 28, 2017, different Discord convo between Matt Heimbach and Vanguard America leader Thomas Ryan Rousseau:
Heimbach: hey brother, heard you’re the new HNIC
Rousseau: I am, Dillon decided to take a break so you can contact me about anything as far as now goes
Heimbach: Fantastic. Well would there be a good time to do a phone conference? for Charlottesville I wanna have all the groups together…
Heimbach: we need plans.. the NF has been charged with taking the ground early, so i need to talk to you and get our security plans together
6.28.17 Heimbach & Thomas Rousseau Discord convo – Heimbach sent Rousseau phone numbers for “League of the south security” and “TWP security” for Ike Baker and ‘Cesar’ and tells him “just tell both that I sent you“
Dunn: you provided promotional materials to your members.. this is a document you set to TWP member concerning Charlottesville…
Dunn points out how in this letter Heimbach praises various nazi leaders including Hitler and says “this event will take sacrifice from each of us.. but I know that our movement is made up of brave men…”
Dunn: you said this may have gone out via email, how many people were on the email list?
Heimbach: I don’t know
Dunn: you’re familiar with the ’14 words’?
Heimbach: yes (recites the 14 words – a nazi mantra)
Dunn asks who David Lane, the creator of the 14 words is ( a convicted murderer)
defense objects, Judge Moon sustains
Dunn asks Heimbach about a ’25 Point Plan’ document he helped create for the Traditionalist Worker Party, going over quotes from it including calling for the establishment of “an independent white ethnostate in North America…”
Dunn: Black people, Hispanic people, Jews… would not be allowed in the white ethnostate in North America, correct?
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: you say that non-citizens… minorities.. would be subject to laws for aliens?
Heimbach: they would not have voting privileges…would not be considered citizens
Dunn: so no voting, no land.. what else would they not have?
Judge Moon: let’s stop right there… take a lunch recess til 1:30
Lunch Break
Judge Moon is coming back into court now
Judge Moon calls the jury back in
Matthew Heimbach, neo-nazi, Unite The Right lawsuit defendant and former leader of the now-defunct Traditionalist Worker Party, is back in the witness stand, Karen Dunn is going to continue his direct examination questioning for the plaintiffs
Dunn: when we took a break we had just discussed your inviting members and groups to ‘Charlottesville 2.0’ – another thing you did was provide TWP members with shields for use in Charlottesville
Heimbach: yes, following an FBI report about counter-protesters using projectiles
Dunn: I ask the court strike the second hald half of that response (Judge Moon agrees)
Dunn pulls up a message from Heimbach in the ‘demonstration_tactics’ channel in the Charlottesville planning Discord– Heimbach: “TWP has shields. Both TWP symbols and celtic crosses”:
Dunn pulls up a 7/12/17 private Discord DM chat between Heimbach and Discord user ‘Heinz-MI’ who Heimbach denies knowing who he is – they were speaking about studying shield tactics
7/12/17 Discord DM to Matthew Heimbach:
Heinz – MI: Hey Mr. Heimbach I got placed in charge of planning general security for Cville…I wanted to touch base with you personally and see… whether or not you wanted to help out…”
[further discussion of using shields]
7.21.17 Discord DMs between Heimbach and ‘Furor_Tuetonicus’ (Heimbach says “I don’t recall” who that is”):
Furor_Tuetonicus: you still coming tonight at 7?
Heimbach: yoyo
Furor_Tuetonicus: Did you get my text msg?
Furor_Tuetonicus: You mind calling real quick?
Heimbach says he doesn’t know who this Discord user is despite having the convo w him and seeming familiar. Dunn asks “who were you referring to in your testimony” when he talked about planning re: shields?
Heimbach: i may have talked with a member of a ‘pool party’ associated with the podcast ‘The Right Stuff’ but that’s not an organization… it’s individuals who meet socially
7.21.17 Discord DMs between Heimbach and ‘Furor_Tuetonicus’:
‘Furor_Tuetonicus’: Are they our usual shields or actual riot shields?
Heimbach: actual cop riot shields
Heimbach: used, of course
‘Furor_Tuetonicus’: damn. Who got the bill?
Heimbach: TWP Party expense, its needed
‘Furor_Tuetonicus’: PS I think I have a great use for those riot shields in our hands. I’ll tell you over voice… best to leave sensitive planning to voice whenever possible
Heimbach: agreed, I’m free now
Dunn: you recall in your deposition where you talked about having a conversation with someone about riot shields that could only be held over voice?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: why don’t you tell us what was said in that conversation?
Heimbach: I don’t recall.. but the shields were only defensive
7.21.17 Discord DMs between Heimbach and ‘Furor_Tuetonicus’:
‘Furor_Tuetonicus’: hey, we need to talk
‘Furor_Tuetonicus’: you have the contact info for culpepper? Have you allocated the shields?
Dunn: so he’s saying to you, have you allocated the shields… did you in particular allocate the shields to particular TWP members?
Heimbach: No
Dunn: who was responsible for that?
Heimbach: this plan… never actually happened… communication between organizers… broke down
Dunn: so your testimony is you never allocated the shields?
Heimbach: we handed them out…
Dunn:.. randomly?
Heimbach: essentially, yes
7.23.17 Discord DM conversation between Matt Heimbach & RCO Nick (Heimbach says Nick was “Vanguard’s security representative for Charlottesville):
RCO Nick to Heimbach: “as you’re probably already aware, we may have to remove commie from Lee Park.. it’s going to be up to Vanguard, TWP, LoS, Stormers, The Right Stuff guys & unaffiliated allies. We are trying to get an initial estimate…”
When asked about “we may have to remove commie from Lee Park”, Dunn says “that seems like a lot of manpower” and Hiembach says “given the militancy” of antifascists he doesn’t “believe that would be extreme or excessive””
Dunn: “removing commie from Lee Park” sounds like a physical activity, no?
Heimbach: I believe the idea was to get to the park early…
Dunn: I’m focusing on the language that’s directed to you in this one-on-one conversation
Heimbach: the idea of getting to the park first… is entirely peaceful
Dunn: move to strike that comment
Joshua Smith (Heimbach’s lawyer): your honor that answer was responsive
Dunn: does “removing commie from Lee Park” sound physical, yes or no?
Heimbach: not necessarily
Dunn: was there a permit to physically remove commies from the park on August 12?
Heimbach: no but there was also not a permit by armed antifascists to deny us our 1st Amendment rights
Judge Moon: they don’t issue special permits to remove people from the park…let’s move on
Dunn: you said there was a plan to arrive prior to the counter-protesters, there was therefore no need to confront counter-protesters outside of the park, correct?
Heimbach: the plan to arrive early we did not participate in, so we arrived on time in accordance with the plan we made with the Charlottesville police department
Dunn: when you said you had a convo w the police who did you speak to?
Heimbach: that was handled by Ike Baker of League of the South…
Dunn directs Heimbach to part of his deposition transcript
Heimbach: I believe I had a single convo confirming the plan with a Charlottesville police officer… I confirmed that the plan was.. to park in the Market Street garage and enter down Market street…
Dunn: your honor, move to strike… he testified when asked this same Q that this was handled by Ike Baker… in his deposition his answer was “I’m not sure…”
Dunn goes back to exhibit 587, the Discord DM chat w ‘RCO Nick’.
Heimbach tells ‘Nick’ “12 police riot shields… numbers right now 60ish”
Dunn:’ RCO Nick” asks – “Is that 60 number just TWP” and you say “it is…”
RCO Nick says “awesome, appreciate it, this could get really interesting”… and then you say “it’s really up to us, if we don’t take the park it’s over before it began”
Dunn: just to break this down.. when he says “we can’t depend on anyone as, as Ike discussed, outside of the hard right”… he’s saying the ‘hard right’ could be depended on to take the park..?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: would the hard right be more likely to get somewhere early?
Heimbach: perhaps
Dunn: you said the plan was to get there early but this post says the hard right could be depended on to take the park…
Dunn: ‘RCO Nick’ says “exactly..I’m trying to get an official stance from IE right now..if they won’t assist I want it on record”
Dunn: so you are talking about something that IE might not be willing to do, correct?..is your testimony that IE was not willing to get there early?
Dunn: so your testimony is NOT that the hard right could be relied upon to be more violent and aggressive..?
Smith: objection, argumentative
Judge Moon: you may answer the Q
Heimbach: I would say the discipline and organization of groups such as myself were more reliable to ensure that there wouldn’t be violence…
Dunn: your honor I move to strike that…
Smith: we oppose the motion to strike…
Judge Moon: strike that and restate the Q
The Discord messages in question are published to the jury now:
RCO Nick: Awesome, appreciate it. Could get really interesting.
Heimbach: agreed man… its really up to us
Heimbach: If we don’t take the park, its over before it began
RCO Nick: Exactly and we can’t depend on anyone outside of as Ike described it the hard right. I’m trying to get an official stance from IE right now. If they won’t assist I want it on record.
-7.24.17 Discord DMs between ‘RCO Nick’ and Matthew Heimbach.
Asked by Dunn if this convo had to do with violence or just “getting there early”, Heimbach says it could be for “Self defense” against antifascists
Like pulling teeth Dunn finally gets Heimbach to admit he didn’t think Identity Evropa (who he called more of a “boat shoes” crowd) “Couldn’t be relied on” “to defend themselves within the limit of the law” on August 12
Dunn: does that exhibit that we saw say anything about self-defense?
Heimbach: no, but its understood
Dunn: before you said this was just about getting there early, are you now saying it’s about self-defense?
Heimbach: there is a continuity of understanding about getting there early… and that if counter-protesters attempted to seize the park we would attempt to defend ourselves with defensive things such as shields…
Dunn enters another conversation from July 29, 2017 from the #lobby channel in the Tradworker Discord chat that discusses shields and helmets (which Heimbach defends as “OSHA approved” and “working class” “hard hats”)
Heimbach: there would be women and Russian orthodox priests with us…
Judge Moon: don’t expand after you answer the question
Dunn pulls up another Discord message from ‘Commander Davis’ (Derrick Davis) of TWP who marched w Heimbach on August 12. The post shows photos of shields w nails sticking out of them- Heimbach says he doesn’t think these shields were used in Cville
Heimbach: Mr. Davis was very interested in woodworking as a hobby and made these as a personal project
Dunn pulls up a message where another TWP member called the items “k*ke bashing Shields”
Dunn shows a photo of TWP members lined up in Charlottesville with shields provided by TWP. Asked to identify ppl in the photo (one of them is clearly Jacob Goodwin) Heimbach says “it’s hard to tell.. for certain”
Dunn: we’re gonna show you a screenshot that’s labeled PX-2901 … do you see in the back right of this screenshot there’s a TWP shield, do you see that?
Heimbach: yes
The photo is one of the more notorious images of Deandre Harris being brutally beaten in the Market Street parking garage – TWP member Jacob Goodwin was convicted in connection with this beating.
Asked if he knew who Deandre Harris was, Heimbach says Harris “viciously assaulted” Unite The Right attendees, Dunn moves to strike that comment , Judge Moon declines to strike (Harris was legally cleared in connection w the incident and several of his assailants served time)
Dunn is comparing details to show how the man w a TWP shield in the Deandre Harrris beating photo is the same man shown in the center of this photo (TWP member/Heimbach follower Jacob Goodwin)
Dunn is preparing to have admitted a video of the market street beating – Josh Smith asks “can we also play the video of Deandre harris before this?” – clearly trying to place blame on Harris
Judge Moon tells Smith to cut it out, “this is not a law school…”
Video of the brutal beating of Deandre Harris in the parking garage is being played now – Jacob Goodwin with the Tradworker shield is clearly involved
Dunn: In that video did you see people using TWP shields to beat mr. Harris?
Heimbach: following Mr. Harris’ brutal assaults on an old man, yes…
Dunn: if this testimony was allowed then can we tell the jury that Mr. Harris was found not guilty…?
Judge Moon starts complaining, Dunn asks for a sidebar
Judge Moon to the jury: this witness was not present when Mr. Harris was beaten and he didn’t see anything… anything that he said regarding Mr. Harris.. is not admissible and you should disregard it…
Dunn: what did you see happen w TWP shields in that video?
Heimbach: looked like there was ongoing combat between mutual combatants
Dunn: did you see someone beating him with a TWP shield?
Heimbach: I wouldn’t say that
Dunn: can you identify in this video, co-defendant Michael Tubbs? Do you see Mr. Tubbs in this photograph?
Heimbach: I do
Dunn: do you see the Vanguard America shield in this video?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: In this video do you also see the TWP armband?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you’re aware that Michael Chesny’s Discord name was ‘Tyrone’?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you’re aware he was placed in charge of transportation for Charlottesville 2.0?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: this was a meeting where Charlottesville 2.0 was discussed ahead of time… and the only thing you can remember being discussed was carpooling?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: would you take a look at PX-2268 please? You recognize this as a post you made on Twitter in November of 2016, less than a year before a car attack in this case?
Heimbach: Correct
Dunn publishes the exhibit of Heimbach’s. Nov2016 tweet where he says “leftist protesters blocking the road with weapons, threats and violence while making you fear for your life? #HitTheGas”
Dunn: when deposed you said when asked what “hit the gas” means you meant “don’t get dragged out of your vehicle?
Heimbach:…yes
Dunn: and where does that appear in this tweet?
Heimbach: it doesn’t appear specifically…
Dunn: so what you’re trying to communicate is that when protesters are blocking the road the right thing to do is to run them over with your car?
Heimbach: No because weapons plus threats plus violence being in the street.. is far different from just being in the street…
Dunn: in your opinion do you need weapons threats and violence or just one of those things?
Heimbach: you said protesters and there is nothing here about hitting protesters.. I said nothing about hitting protesters.. simply not becoming victimized…
Dunn: it doesn’t say hashtag protect your life, it says hashtag hit the gas…
Heimbach goes into elaborate verbal acrobatics justifying the tweet
Dunn: what in your mind constitutes sufficient cause for someone to.. warrant being run over by a car?
Heimbach: i have no comment on running anyone over with a car… merely removing yourself by stepping on the gas.. which is in line with legislation passed in multiple states..
Dunn pulls up PX-3317, texts between Matt Heimbach and Chris Cantwell
08/10/11 texts between Heimbach and Cantwell discuss meeting up, using Signal to encrypt their texts. Heimbach denies using Signal to communicate w Cantwell. On August 16, Heimbach texted Cantwell saying “I’ve got your back… victory or death brother“
Dunn: you were willing to die at the event on August 11 and 12..?
Heimbach: ..yes
Dunn: did you travel to Charlottesville with defendant Parrott?
Heimbach: I believe so
Dunn: when you arrived in Charlottesville did you meet with your membership?
Heimbach: just the folks that were there at our rented cabin
Dunn: you said you specifically told your members and supporters not to go to the torch rally.. because there wasn’t a permit? Is there anything in writing about this?
Heimbach: I believe Cesar Ortiz, our head of security, had texted folks
Dunn: in your deposition you were asked if you attended the torch march.. your answer was no and you instructed all TWP members.. not to go.. bc there wasn’t a permit.. do you stand by that?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: your lawyer Mr. Smith said in opening that you were not told about the torch march… is that accurate?.. when did you hear about the torch march?
Heimbach: before the torch march, I don’t recall exactly when… but we decided not to attend
Dunn: when you said “i specifically instructed all TWP supporters and members not to go? you meant that someone else did it?
Judge Moon: Let’s take a recess
Afternoon Break
Judge Moon is back in court, proceedings should be resuming shortly
Dunn: Mr. Heimbach, before the break you had mentioned the police… in your previous sworn answers you were asked to identify any communications w a govt official before during or after the events…
Dunn: …do you recall that in response to that… you said “to my knowledge my only communication w govt officials for this event was during the event and calling Cville police/assorted state police “pigs” and “class traitors”…
Dunn:…… you also said that “each cop works and fights for the jews”, do you remember that?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn shows a photo of a man in a TWP shirt at the torch march, asks Heimbach if he knows who that is, he says no
Dunn asks Heimbach if he says he didn’t support the torch march, he agrees. Then she asks him about photos he posted online the next day w torch rally photos posting “you will not replace us” with the “tradworker” hashtag
Dunn: on the morning of the August 12 you went to the parking lot of Joann Fabric about 20 mins outside of Cville.. about 100 ppl gathered there with you… you were joined there by League of the South…was Brad Griffin there?
Heimbach: I’m not sure
Dunn: National Socialist Movement other TWP members… skinhead groups like Hammerskins and Blood and Honour Social Club were also there, correct?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: then you went to Market St garage in Cville?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn shows a photo of Heimbach walking into Cville alongside TWP member Derrick Davis, and League of the South leaders Michael Hill and Michael Tubbs. League of the South member Brandon Richey and ‘Bowl Patrol’ member Alek Hyer aka WhiteTrash are also visible in the photo
Dunn zooms in on handwear Tubbs seems to be wearing (reinforced gloves) and Heimbach claims to not recognize the gloves – Dunn also points out Hill is carrying a cane to which Heimbach says “he’s a senior citizen”
Dunn: someone other than Mr. Hill seems to have a cane in this photo, can you tell who that is?
Heimbach: I can’t tell…
Dunn: on that day did you see Mr. Hill use his cane as a weapon?
Heimbach: no
Dunn: there are men with white shields with a black X in the front in line behind Tubbs & Hill, those are men from the League of the South, correct?
Heimbach: it’s the southern nationalist flag, yes
Dunn: as you approached Emancipation Park you encountered counter-protesters with their arms linked, correct?
Heimbach: ….yes
Dunn: as you encountered counter-protesters with their arms linked you did not tell the people you were with to stop, did you?
Heimbach: I didn’t have the ability to tell them to stop
Dunn: you didn’t tell the people that you were leading to stop?
Heimbach: correct
Dunn plays a video from the morning of August 12 that shows Heimbach shouting “shields up” and leading a group of TWP & League of the South & NSM members as they charge into counter-protesters who had their arms linked.
Marchers in Heimbach’s group are seen striking counter-protesters with flagpoles and punching them.
Dunn: at the beginning of this video you yelled “Shields up” before they charged into the crowd, correct?
Heimbach: I yelled shields up because projetiles were incoming
Heimbach: I yelled shields up because projectiles were incoming
Dunn: right before you said “shields up”, you said “just another day in the park”… I didn’t see any projectile and didn’t see any projectile.. you don’t disagree…?
Heimbach: I don’t disagree
Dunn stops on a screenshot (strongly resembling TWP member Cory Smith but we aren’t sure) that shows a TWP member with a TWP flag rolled up “who is stabbing counter-protesters with the end of the flagpole” would you agree with that?
Heimbach: i can’t see the full context…perhaps the individual is armed…
Dunn: we can play the video again and you can point out whatever context you see here…
Dunn: You don’t disagree…that TWP member stabbing counter-protesters w the end of that flagpole?
Smith: i object to the language of ‘stabbing with a flagpole’
Dunn: your honor Mr. Heimbach used that language in his own deposition
Smith: I don’t see how that makes it proper
Dunn: let’s look at the second screenshot. There’s a man here in a black polo and a vest w a khaki hat and khaki pants slamming a shield into the counter-protesters who have their arms locked… do you see that?
Heimbach: correct but I don’t think that’s a TWP member
Dunn: but that’s somebody in your line.. correct?
Heimbach: I don’t think I’m the babysitter of other groups.. I’m out of the frame by then
Dunn: you’re aware this is a case about individuals and organizations, you understand that?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you had just marched in with Mr. Hill, the person who is pushing their shield into the counter-protesters is wearing the uniform of the League of the South… do you recognize that black helmet… as the TWP helmet?
Heimbach: not necessarily…
Dunn pulls up another screenshot – “your hat is a black helmet w a TWP logo on the side?”
Heimbach: no its actually a celtic cross
Dunn: so the third screenshot is another man with a black polo in khakis shoving a woman with a tank top and shorts, do you see that, he has both his hands on her?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: and he too is wearing a black hat with a white helmet, do you see that?
Heimbach: yes.. but that’s not a TWP member
Dunn: …League of the South and TWP marched in together…we saw you shoulder to shoulder with defendants Hill and Tubbs
Heimbach: yes
Dunn shows a screenshot of a man in a TWP shirt “shoving.. into this counter-protester with a shield”…
Smith objects saying he hasn’t seen the video
Dunn: your honor we showed the video
Dunn: you would agree that this man is shoving the shield into the counter-protester not that the counter-protester is shoving herself into the shield?
Heimbach: sure, but I don’t know the exact context
Dunn: here we see a man in a black shirt… macing this same counter-protester, correct?
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: this occurred on Market Street outside the park?
Heimbach: yes…
Dunn shows a tweet from TWP ‘Commander’ Derrick Davis w a photo of Heimbach and Davis on August 12 that was retweeted by TWP – the tweet is dated August 13. The tweet text reads “In memory of plowing through a human wall of communists”
The text on the photo also reads “we have passed and we shall pass again”
Dunn: that seems to suggest that TWP members will “plow through a human wall of communists again?”
Heimbach says the text is actually just a “rather obscure reference to the Spanish civil war because antifascists commonly chant No Pasaran”
Dunn shows the Twitter bio page for @Tradworker (since suspended) and asks Heimbach about the TWP bio saying “local solutions to the globalist problem” and asks Heimbach if he saw Froliche’s deposition about “globalist” being a dogwhistle for Jewish ppl
Dunn shows a picture of a bottle being thrown by TWP member Cesar Ortiz towards counter-protesters at Unite The Right. Heimbach insists that the projectile was merely being “returned” after being thrown by counter-protesters.
Heimbach is seen smiling immediately to the left of Cesar Ortiz in the photo
Dunn: where you are in this photo is at the staircase in the SE entrance to the park, correct?
Heimbach: correct
Heimbach: that’s a TWP member who had been maced by antifascists
Dunn: your honor there’s no question pending…
Dunn: your testimony is that you withdrew participation in the leadership discussion channel on Discord two weeks before the event?
Heimbach: yes, we wanted to come up with our own plan
Dunn: but when you were asked in your deposition whether your plan you talked about it a separate entrance to the park, you said yes.. you still attended, you still brought shields..
Heimbach: yes, as the leadership of a political party..
Judge Moon to Heimbach: please don’t…
Dunn: you’ve said in the leadup to August 12 you weren’t really on speaking terms with Mr. Kline or Mr. Kessler… let’s look at your phone records…your phone number in 2017 was [reads number]…
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: the phone records are very voluminous so we’re gonna show you the page w Mr. Kline… this reflects that you called Mr. Kline at 5:49 PM on August 7, do you see that?
Heimbach: I do
Dunn: there’s a phone call w Mr Kline on august 12 at 7:29… it’s also been your testimony that you did not speak w Mr. Kline in person on Emancipation Park on August 12, correct?
Heimbach: not in Emancipation Park…
Dunn asks to play “as impeachment” video from August 12 inside the park – it shows Heimbach talking to Eli Mosley in front of an assembled group of TWP members
Dunn: do you recognize this to be yourself and this to be Mr. Kline?
Heimbach: it looks to be a hectic day where folks were trying to kill me…
Dunn: but you don’t deny this is you and Mr. Kline…
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: move to strike comment about “ppl trying to kill me”
Moon: sustained
Dunn: what is this black string that is hanging out of your shirt?
Heimbach: it would have been a microphone… reporters were embedded with us
Dunn: did you or other members of TWP have radio communication.. with others that day?
Heimbach: not that I could recall…
Dunn: you have said in your testimony that you wanted to leave the city to avoid conflict, but instead of going back to the market street garage you followed Mr. Kline’s instructions and went to McIntire Park, is that correct?
Heimbach: yes… [goes on for a while about a supposed wall of antifascists, Dunn moves to strike]
Dunn: you testified that you didn’t have communications with Jason Kessler leading up to August 12… let’s look at your phone records… you spoke to Mr. Kessler on August 7… you called him at almost 5 PM, you left a voicemail… Mr Kessler returned your phone call at 5:11…you called him again.. you spoke for 7 mins… you also spoke to him on August 10… Mr Kessler called you at 2:14 on the 10th and you spoke for 6 mins… – Dunn
Dunn: Mr. Kessler called you at 2:14 PM on August 20 and you spoke for 6 mins. you spoke w Mr Kessler on August 11… at 5:02.. so we can agree at this point.. that you did have communications with Mr. Kessler in the leadup to August 12?
Heimbach: yes.. i just didn’t recall talking to him
Dunn: but he didn’t talk to you about the torch rally?
Smith: objection
Moon: overruled
Dunn: even though you spoke to Mr. Kessler multiple times on August 6-11, he didn’t talk to you about the torch rally on the 11th?
Heimbach: I don’t recall that he did
Dunn: On August 13… this is in evidence… you texted Mr. Kessler about an upcoming press conference…
Heimbach: he said he didn’t want TWP to go
Dunn: you wrote to Mr Kessler on August 13 “we literally bled yesterday… and then you’re going to ask my men to protect you but not go to the press conference? That dog don’t hunt”
Kessler replied “I plan to stand up for all of us but the message has to be tightly controlled.. there are people who are going to try to kill me if I don’t get some security” and Heimbach asks Kessler if he’s “going to stand by TWP as partners”
Dunn is pointing out contradictions in Heimbach saying whether or not he saw Richard Spencer at McIntire Park on August 12
Dunn shows Heimbach a portion of video showing himself and Richard Spencer standing near each other at McIntire Park on August 12 after the state of emergency
Dunn: after August 11-12, you said that you believed that at Charlottesville your movement had “acheived all its objectives”
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: that was after the car attack, after all the events of August 11-12, correct?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you said “this was a stunning victory for us, we achieved all our objectives”?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: despite people getting hit by a car and many people getting injured?
Heimbach: those are fundamentally separate events
Dunn: your testimony is that none of this had anything to do with you?
Heimbach: when i speak of Charlottesville… I’m speaking about the rally itself
Dunn: you’re aware that James Fields drove his car into a crowd killing Heather Heyer and injuring many of the plaintiffs of this case?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you believe that James Fields did not do anything wrong?
Heimbach: with the biased nature of trials in this country….
Dunn: when you were asked by a reporter if you would dissociate from Mr. Fields, you said you would not, correct?
Heimbach: I don’t recall what interview or time that would have been
Dunn: you said he “acted in self-defense and did not commit a crime”… was that your answer? If you’re not sure you can look at page 668 lines 8-10
Heimbach: I’ll believe you
Dunn: do you recognize this?
Heimbach: That’s a letter I wrote to James Fields
Dunn admits the letter – “Dear James, we’ve never met and you might not know who I am .. I am the chairman of the Traditionaist Worker Party.. a national socialist organization that was there with you in Charlottesville.. what we do have is a connection as comrades…you are a good man, I can tell from everything I’ve read and heard about you. I know why you went to Charlottesville.. because you want a future for yourself and for our people“
Dunn: at this time you were telling Mr. Fields you know why he went to Cville correct?
Heimbach: yes, to stand up for the confederate statues
Dunn: one reason you understood was because of your shared beliefs with Mr. Fields, correct?
Heimbach: Yes
Dunn: you wrote to Fields “you my friend are a martyr for our folk” and you write “the enemy has imprisoned you bc they are scared of the rise of nationalism” – who is the enemy you refer to..?
Heimbach: the American empire… is hostile to.. white Smericans
Dunn: you continue “you are a prisoner of war in this fight…”
Dunn has Heimbach read a romantic German war song he included in the letter to Fields. Heimbach sounds happy to read it. One line is “while I’m about to reload”
Dunn: you say “you will soon be free… and given a hero’s welcome when you come home”.. in the next paragraph you say “thank you for your service to our people” – who are our people?
Heimbach: white people… I’m not speaking about the car accident… I view his prosecution as politically motivated… his service was continuing to fight for his innocence, at the time I wrote this letter
Dunn: so your testimony is that when you wrote Fields “thank you for your service” you were not referring to August 12?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: after Mr. Fields killed Ms. Heyer, you said “she wasn’t on her way to church and was blocking traffic, if you don’t want shit don’t start shit” – do you remember saying that?
Heimbach: not off the top of my head
Dunn: not something you would remember if you said it?
Heimbach: I’ve said a lot of things over the years…
Dunn: no further questions at this time
James Kolenich – lawyer for Jason Kessler, Nathan Damigo and Identity Evropa – is cross-examining Heimbach now
Kolenich solicits Heimbach’s agreement that his talk about ‘taking the park’ early was his own “phraseology” and not Kessler’s or Damigo’s. Has Heimbach say he was not taking orders from Kessler or Damigo not familiar with Identity Evropa’s structure
Kolenich: would you consider Identity Evropa and Jason Kessler part of the ‘hard right?’
Heimbach: no, Identity Evropa was far more bourgeois… different subcultures and places in the movement
Kolenich: would your organization have relied on Kessler or IE for physical defense at an event?
Heimbach: no
Kolenich: thank you no further questions
Richard Spencer (representing himself) is gonna cross-examine Matt Heimbach now
Spencer: was I ever involved with any organization that you ran or were intimiately involved with?
Heimbach: no
Spencer: does that include TWP and the League of the South?
Heimbach: yes
Spencer: did you ever provide security for me during the events of Charlottesville or anything like that?
Heimbach: no
Spencer: did you ever provide me with a shield or a helmet… provide me with advice related to security?
Heimbach: no
Dunn requests a “brief sidebar”
Spencer: could you describe my involvement with any of the aforementioned organizations?
Heimbach: none to my knowledge
Spencer: we’ve seen evidence that you’ve gotten into some altercations.. was I ever involved in any of these altercations…?
Heimbach: no
Spencer: you were involved with logistical coordination with the Charlottesville police… you have testified to that fact…
Dunn: objection, not the witnesses’ testimony, misstates testimony and also leading
Judge Moon to Heimbach: did you say you were involved in contact w Cville police?
Heimbach: yes but I said League of the South was the primary contact
Spencer: were we in communication in the year leading up to the Charlottesville rally?
Heimbach: to some degree
Spencer shows a screenshot of text message between himself and Heimbach:
May 21, 2017 texts:
Heimbach: hey Richard, matt here. I got caught up with some family stuff, is after supper ok to talk?
Spencer: Let (cuts off on court media room monitor view)
Heimbach: Sounds great!
Spencer: do you recall having a phone convo w me in summer 2017?
Heimbach: yes
Spencer: do you recall anything about that conversation?
Heimbach: we mostly talked about our families, friendly chit-chat
Spencer: had we talked before that?
Heimbach: I don’t think so… different subcultures
Spencer: did we interact on social media?
Heimbach: I think I followed you
Spencer: Charlottesville 1.0… do you remember seeing me there and at the afterparty?
Heimbach: yes
Spencer: do you remember there being a lot of…drinking at that afterparty?
Dunn: objection, leading
Spencer: what do you remember about that event?
Heimbach: enthusiastic
Spencer: do you remember anyone being drunk at that party?
Heimbach: probably most of everyone
Spencer: did I invite you to attend Charlottesville 1.0?
Heimbach: no
Spencer: who invited you?
Heimbach: Derrick Davis
Spencer asks Heimbach to defend the idea of an “ethnostate”… Heimbach goes into his own favorable sounding definition of the term
Spencer: have you ever heard me discuss that term?
Heimbach: I can’t remember specifically
Spencer is asking Heimbach more semantic Qs about the idea of the ethnostate… we will spare you the details
Spencer: going back before 2017, what was your impression of me, Richard Spencer, before the Charlottesville rally?
Heimbach: I kind of always viewed you as a bit of a dandy
Spencer: was I someone that you looked up to in terms of a traditionalist workers’ movement?
Heimbach: no
Spencer: was I someone you would listen to for… advice?
Heimbach: no
Spencer: did you ever see me wear boat shoes?
Heimbach: … it wouldn’t surprise me
Spencer: could you rely on me?
Heimbach: no
Spencer: Dillon Hopper…he wrote “now all we need is Spencer and Damigo” – what did you need us for?
Heimbach: I personally would have said nothing…when I wrote that I was not including your part of things.. Dillon said that we needed you guys
Spencer: do you want me there? at Charlottesville?
Heimbach: yes but I view us as subculturally in competition with each other
Spencer: no further Qs
Cantwell: I’m happy to get started but I’d definitely take more than 13 minutes
David Campbel, James Fields lawyer, quickly asks Heimbach if he’d ever met Fields at all or at any event before August 12, Heimbach says no.
Campbel: in your mind when was Unite The Right over?
Heimbach: when the state of emergency was declared
Judge Moon is sending the jury home until 9 AM tomorrow morning, reminds jurors not to discuss the case or read/listen/watch anything pertaining to the case
Roberta Kaplan tells Judge Moon that she hopes to tomorrow be able to call expert witness Deborah Lipstadt, a historian specializing in debunking Holocaust denial
Spencer tells Judge Moon that “all of the evidence on Discord” is not labeled conveniently for him to go over it
Spencer is still talking about the label issue w Discord exhibits – Judge Moon is already standing up clearly ready to leave
Cantwell chimes in to say “I have no idea what is going on” – seems like court is done for real now, Judge Moon is out of the media room monitor’s frame and no longer at the bench
