Sines v. Kessler Rush Transcript – Day 8: Matt Heimbach, Diane D’Costa, Deborah Lipstadt, Robert Ray, Eliott Kline
Charlottesville, VA – The lawsuit against leading white supremacist organizers and groups began trial on October 25, 2021 at the federal courthouse in Charlottesville, Virginia. Attorneys with civil rights nonprofit Integrity First For America are representing victims of racist attacks at the ‘Unite the Right’ rally in Charlottesville in August 2017.
Official Court Transcript [Courtesy: Integrity First For America] [Click HERE to Download .PDF]
1639753612-2021-nov-3-moon-sines-v-kessler-317cv72-cvl-jt-day8-finalTranscript of Eliott Kline (Eli Mosley) deposition as played at trial [Courtesy: Integrity First For America] [Click HERE to Download .PDF]
1641845851-elliot-kline-deposition-as-played-at-trialAdditional Resources via Integrity First For America: Trial & Deposition Video Transcripts • Searchable Database of Plaintiff’s Trial Exhibits
Unicorn Riot’s rush transcript from the day’s proceedings is below. While the official court transcript is more comprehensive, UR’s live notes sometimes contain visual descriptions of elements not noted by the court reporter, including the visual appearance of exhibits shown at trial, movements of parties in the courtroom, and happenings in and around the courthouse.
NOTE: Rush transcripts are generated from Unicorn Riot’s live tweets posted in real-time while observing trial proceedings from inside the courthouse media room. Quotations and descriptions written here are not always precise verbatim quotes and sometimes use paraphrasing or shorthand to quickly capture and convey exchanges during court hearings. There may be some errors regarding details like jury numbers, exhibit numbers and dates as well as typos and missing punctuation. These rush transcripts do not capture every single moment, but are our attempt to provide the public with as much direct access to the trial as possible until full court transcripts are made publicly available at a later date.
Unite The Right On Trial:
Rush transcripts: Day 1 | Day 2 | Day 3 | Day 4 | Day 5 | Day 6 | Day 7 | Day 8 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 11 | Day 12 | Day 13 | Day 14 | Day 15 | Day 16
Read Unicorn Riot's live tweets from trial proceedings - Day 1 | Day 2 | Day 3 | Day 4 | Day 5 | Day 6 | Day 7 | Day 8 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 11 | Day 12 | Day 13 | Day 14 | Day 15 | Day 16 | Day 17 | Day 18 | Day 19
Day 8 – Nov 3, 2021 (Collected from this tweet thread)
Good morning – court is resuming now for the 8th day in the ‘Sines v. Kessler’ lawsuit trial in the civil case filed against Unite The Right neo-nazi rally organizers.
Matt Heimbach (Defendant) Testimony, Continued
Matt Heimbach was testifying yesterday and will continue to be cross-examined soonJudge Moon and the parties in the case are discussing upcoming testimony, plaintiffs’ attorney Roberta Kaplan says they plan to show video depositions including from Eliott Kline and Dillon Hopper today. Kaplan says plaintiffs also plan to soon show the jury a video presentation regarding Robert ‘Azzmador’ Ray of the neo-nazi site Daily Stormer, a defendant in this case who hasn’t responded or produced evidence at all and is also a fugitive related to separate criminal charges. Matthew Heimbach, former leader of the now-defunct Traditionalist Worker Party, is back on the stand now.
Heimbach will be cross-examined by William Rebrook, defense counsel for the National Socialist Movement (NSM) and former NSM leader Jeff Schoep.
Rebrook: You mentioned that all the defendants were on a Discord. Do you any recollection whether Mr. Jeff Schoep was on the Discord?
Heimbach: I do not believe he was…
Rebrook: yesterday you were asked about wearing clothes that concealed blood… was the blood to conceal the blood of other persons or conceal the blood of the wearer?
Dunn: objection, leading
Judge Moon: overruled
Heimbach: that would be the wearers, we had gotten used to being attacked by antifascists…
Judge Moon: Just answer the Q, don’t do the anticipated follow-up… he can ask you why if he wants to…
Rebrook: yesterday you were quoted as having quoted Adolf Hitler… about a “willingness to fight”, do you remember that?
Heimbach: yes
Rebrook: was that figurative or literal?
Heimbach: figurative
Rebrook: I have no further questions
Heimbach is now being cross-examined by Bryan Jones, counsel for League of the South & League leaders Michael Hill & Michael Tubbs
Jones shows Heimbach a photo from the May 2017 ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ rally that shows Heimbach and others behind an Identity Evropa banner. Jones asks if Hill or Tubbs were at that rally, Heimbach says they were not.
Jones asks Heimbach about the April 2017 Pikeville, Kentucky rally and asks if Hill and Tubbs were there – Heimbach says Michael Hill was. Jones asks if “antifa was there”, Heimbach says yes and eagerly describes “paramilitary antifa” groups he says were there.
Jones shows a photo of “antifa groups” counter-protesting the April 2017 Pikeville, Kentucky neo-nazi rally where Heimbach and Michael Hill were present. The photo shows protesters, some with red bandanas, others with signs, one sign shows Richard Spencer getting punched.
Bryan Jones is asking Heimbach about policing at the Pikeville rally – Heimbach describes police keeping the nazis and anti-nazi protesters separated.
[See our coverage from the April 2017 Pikeville neo-nazi rally & counter-protest]
Jones: was James Fields at the Pikeville rally?
Heimbach: no
Karen Dunn (plaintiffs’ attorney): objection, move to strike
Jones: was anyone injured in a car attack in Pikeville?
Heimbach: noone was injured in Pikeville Jones pulls up a video of the morning of August 12, 2017 in Charlottesville when the Traditionalist Worker Party and League of the South members are marching up the street and charging into counter-protesters
Jones: what is depicted in this video?
Heimbach: counter-protesters have blocked the road, several of them have sticks in their hands Jones is now showing a screenshot of a video of ours from the morning of August 12 with anti-racist protesters with arms linked in the road.
Jones: do you recognize any of the same antifa protesters?
Heimbach: yes, they have red bandanas Jones: what do the red bandanas represent?
Heimbach:… communism
Dunn: objection, foundation
Judge Moon: it will not be accepted for the truth but rather for the gentleman’s state of mind at the time Jones is circling red flags seen in the counter-protest on the morning of Unite The Right, solicits Heimbach’s observation that it’s a “Soviet Union” flag
Jones: there was some talk on Discord.. about ‘communists’ being at the park, what did you mean by that?
Heimbach: Communists, members of Marxist organizations or antifascist organizations
Dunn: objection Jones: did you anticipate communists being at the rally in Charlottesville?
Heimbach: yes
Jones: did you see police intervening in Charlottesville to prevent communist protesters from blocking the street?
Heimbach: they did not intervene Jones pulls up Heimbach’s Discord message with another Unite The Right organizer saying “we’re all doing it together” in reference to different organizations. Jones then asks “did you know James Fields would be at Charlottesville” “did you know if James Fields was in any organization”, Heimbach says no to both. Jones has Heimbach says he was not “with James Fields at the time of the car attack.” Jones: did you know who Samantha Froelich was…before her deposition in this case?
Heimbach: no… I don’t believe I’ve ever spoken to her
Jones: do you know whether anyone in the TWP knows her?
Dunn: objection, foundation
Judge Moon: sustained Jones shows the Traditionalist Worker Party twitter post Dunn showed yesterday that shows’s TWP leader Derrick Davis posting a photo of Heimbach w text about “plowing through a human wall of communists”
Jones: do you consider communism to be a race?
Heimbach: no, its an ideology Jones: so ‘plowing through a human wall of communists’ would be a politically motivated act, not a racially motivated one, correct?
Dunn: objection, leading
Judge Moon: sustained Jones: why did you believe it was important to have shields at Charlottesville?
Heimbach: due to… violence by antifa… [Heimbach goes on for quite a while saying antifa attacks ‘regular people’] Bryan Jones is moving to play a video showing the area outside the Unite The Right rally in the park on the morning of August 12, 2017. Jones asks Heimbach about objects being thrown, Heimbach says they’re being thrown by counter-protesters, Dunn objects, Judge Moon asks how Heimbach knows they’re counter-protesters. Dunn says video hasn’t been admitted as evidence & the exhibit has “come in without foundation” Jones: Mr. Heimbach were you at Emancipation Park on Aug 12, 2017?
Heimbach: yes
Jones: did you see any counter-protesters…?… where were they located?
Heimbach: on the street, often trying to force their way into the park Jones has Heimbach point out someone with “a red bandana” and a “masked individual with sunglasses” in the crowd, asks him to describe them. Heimbach says he thinks they’re “antifascists” and says one person seems to be throwing a projectile
Judge Moon tells defense counsel that Heimbach “can’t editorialize” in his answers (which he has been doing pretty extensively the whole time)
Dunn is saying it “will change the entire character of the trial” if the defense is allowed to play videos during a witness’ testimony when the witness wasn’t in a video and didn’t see what happened in the video
Judge Moon lets League of the South defense counsel go on to play the video. The clip just showed a counter-protester throwing something at men holding neo-nazi flags at Unite The Right
Jones: were you struck with projectiles at the rally?
Heimbach: no
Jones: were any TWP members?
Heimbach: yes… stones, frozen water bottles Jones pulls up the TWP Discord photo posted by Derrick Davis of a wooden shield with nails sticking out of the front that Dunn showed during her direct examination of Heimbach yesterday.
Jones asks Heimbach how long he has been deposed for before trial, he estimates 16 hours.
Jones is showing a portion of a News2Share video showing fighting between neo-nazis and anti-racists in the street outside Emancipation Park during Unite The Right.
Heimbach claims to see “a teargas canister being thrown by antifa at us”
Jones scrubs forward to a scene where Virginia State Police in riot gear are lined up in the park. Asks about description of the shields the cops have, asks “are those Traditionalist Worker Party members”, obviously they aren’t
Jones: did you conspire with the Virginia State Police to bring shields to Charlottesville?
Heimbach: no
Jones: did you conspire with the Virginia State Police to bring helmets to Charlottesville?
Heimbach: no Jones: so based on the officers in this photo… holding shields, standing in formation… are they part of a conspiracy to commit racially motivated violence?
Dunn: objection
Jones: thank you, that’s all the questions I have
Defendant Christopher Cantwell, representing himself, is cross-examining Matt Heimbach now.
Cantwell: were you in any position to comment on the accuracy of my opening statement? Do you know the names of my siblings… whether my parents are still married?
Heimbach: no Cantwell: what role, if any, did I play in the TWP?
Heimbach: zero
Cantwell: what knowledge do you have of my involvement in any organization that comprised the Nationalist Front?
Heimbach: none Cantwell: did you describe your plans for Aug 12 as separate from…?
Heimbach: any of the organizers… we were merely attendees Cantwell: are you aware of the so-called leadership meeting at McIntire Park on August 11?.. when did you become aware of it?
Heimbach: after the fact, during this case… I wasn’t there Cantwell: do you recall the SMS convo between us…? you may recall me saying ‘this is Cantwell btw’… is ‘btw’ some kind of nazi code word?
Heimbach: no… Cantwell: do you recall when I suggested using ‘Signal’… and did you start using it? When?
Heimbach: After August 11-12…
Cantwell: does Signal ‘delete’ messages without the user specifically activating that feature?
Heimbach: I don’t believe it’s an auto setting Cantwell: have you and I ever used that feature?
Heimbach: no
Cantwell: did you use that feature w any defendant in this case?
Heimbach: I don’t believe so Cantwell is asking Heimbach about the planning meeting for the May 2017 ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ rally – Heimbach says he wasn’t involved in planning but attended the event.
Cantwell asks if there was any violence at that event. Heimbach says no
Cantwell: what did you think about the aesthetic of the torches?
Heimbach: I thought it was very powerful
Cantwell: what role, if any, did I play in Charlottesville 1.0?
Heimbach: none
Cantwell: was anyone profoundly disappointed by my absence?
Heimbach: no
Cantwell asks Heimbach when they first met – Heimbach says it was at a pub after a Richard Spencer speech at Auburn University
Cantwell asks Heimbach about police presence at the Auburn event, asks if there was any violence, Heimbach says a TWP nazi party member had his jaw broken.
Cantwell: when was the next time you and I met?
Heimbach: the rally in Pikeville, Kentucky
Cantwell: the plaintiffs referenced the warm introduction you gave me in Pikeville… on what info did you give that assessment…?
Heimbach: .. you had a very popular podcast
Heimbach talks about praising Cantwell in Pikeville for being a “pro-white advocate”
Cantwell: if I were a liar would you have a lower opinion of me?
Heimbach: yes
Cantwell: what other defendants were in Pikeville?
Heimbach: NSM, Jeff Schoep League of the South, Matt Parrott Cantwell asks if Heimbach remembers seeing him interact at Pikeville w Tubbs, Hill, Schoep… Heimbach says he doesn’t remember
Cantwell: was there any violence at the Pikeville rally?
Heimbach: no
Cantwell: At the Pikeville event you and I both gave speeches… there were cameras…if you had to categorize the behavior on camera as ‘front stage’ or ‘back stage’ behavior which would it be?
Heimbach: front stage
Cantwell: and did you honestly describe at that time how you felt about Jewish people?
Heimbach:…yes…
Cantwell: was anybody laughing when you described those views…
Heimbach: no
Cantwell: what’s your favorite Holocaust joke?…I’ll withdraw that (Heimbach chuckles)
Heimbach just went on at length about the history of the American Nazi Party and how supposedly both the American Nazi Party & Heimbach’s group just use nazi imagery to get “controversy” to attract the media so they can really talk about issues like”housing” & the “opioid crisis”
Cantwell is soliciting Heimbach’s agreement with his view that the media is “hostile” to “our views”.
Cantwell walks Heimbach through giving favorable, propagandistic explanations of ethno-nationalist ideals to the jury, Heimbach goes into a revisionist racist history tangent
Cantwell: have you heard of Marcus Garvey and Malcolm X?
Judge Moon: where are you going with this?
Cantwell: Marcus Garvey and Malcolm X are black nationalists…
Moon: …if it has anything to with the establishment of your ideology you may proceed
with the permission of Judge Norman Moon, Matt Heimbach is now talking about why he sees black nationalism as a model for white nationalism, Cantwell is asking Heimbach to expound on his “white juche” manifesto.
The jury is really getting helped to a large scoop of undiluted neo-nazi propaganda here.
Cantwell: were you at some point a member of the National Socialist Movement?
Heimbach: briefly, I resigned Dunn objects, says a motion was filed about this topic, both sides ask for a sidebar and approach the bench sidebar is done. Judge Moon says “we’re gonna take a break in about ten mins”
Cantwell: when did your relationship with the National Socialist Movement end?
Heimbach: in the end of 2018
Cantwell: did it end on good terms?
Heimbach: no i resigned and then they tried to fire me Cantwell: are you Jewish?
Heimbach: no
Cantwell repeatedly drops the n-word with a hard R when asking about Heimbach calling Vanguard Ameria/Patriot Front the ‘HNIC’ in Discord chats referenced by plaintiffs yesterday.
Cantwell is asking Heimbach about people using pseudonyms on Discord, solicits Heimbach’s agreement that he was concerned about infiltrators in Discord.
Cantwell asks Heimbach about a wire he is seen with in a Charlottesville photo, Heimbach says it’s a news video microphone
Cantwell: did you ever speak to me using a walkie-talkie?
Heimbach: I don’t think so
Cantwell: …have you ever acted at the behest of any government, foreign or domestic?
Heimbach: no
Cantwell: On the ‘Charlottesville 2.0’ Discord server were you in the leadership channel?
Heimbach: yes
Cantwell: was I in that channel?
Heimbach: not to my knowledge
Cantwell: did you have admin privileges in that channel?
Heimbach: I don’t recall
Cantwell is having Heimbach agree that Cantwell wasn’t at X and Y planning meetings and discussions
Cantwell: at any point during this litigation, have you falsely denied communicating with me?
Heimbach: no
Cantwell is having Heimbach describe various scenarios of alleged antifascist violence or scenarios involving fear of antifa
Court is in a short recess now – back in ~10 mins
Morning Break
Court is about to resume, Judge Moon is back at the bench
The jury is filing back in now.
Cantwell picks back up on his line of comments/Qs to Heimbach about a “bike lock” allegedly used by antifascists as a weapon at a protest in Berkeley before the Charlottesville event
Dunn: objection, the question asked is… outside Heimbach’s knowledge
Cantwell: have you ever heard the moniker ‘bike lock guy’?… who is [name]?
Dunn: objection…we question the relevance of this
Cantwell: when you were discussing bike locks in the Discord server did that have any relation to the purchase of shields and helmets?
Cantwell: yesterday you made several references to ‘militant antifascists’… to the best of your knowledge is ‘antifa’ the sort of thing one carries a membership card for?
Heimbach: No
Cantwell: and the TWP is something you can verify one’s membership in?
Heimbach: yes, we were a FEC-registered political party
Cantwell: so if some militant antifascist says “i’m not an antifa member” would you take that to be unfalsifiable?
Dunn: objection
Judge Moon: sustained
Cantwell: ahead of Aug 12 did you know people who had been harmed by antifascists?… did you fear for your safety?
Heimbach: yes
Cantwell: …is that why the TWP brought shields and helmets?
Heimbach: yes
Cantwell: is race your only agreement with antifa?
Heimbach: no
Cantwell: would you be ok with a white-only drag queen story hour?
Heimbach: no
Dunn: objection
Cantwell: if a bunch of French people moved to your neighborhood, refused to learn English…
Dunn: objection
Judge Moon: sustained
Cantwell: was the beating of Deandre Harris racially motivated?
Heimbach: no
Dunn: objection, we move to strike this whole line of questioning
Judge Moon: sustained, we will strike
Cantwell: did you hear Devin Willis testify that you could have just gone around him?
Heimbach: yes
Cantwell: do you know where I was when I got pepper sprayed?
Heimbach: i believe it was on Market Street
Dunn: objection, the witness did not see any of this himself
Cantwell: did you have a plan w the Cville police… of where to enter the park?
Heimbach: yes
Cantwell:.which did you understand to be the safest?
Heimbach: the one closest to where the police had us park
Cantwell: that’s where we saw the clash [in the video]?
Heimbach: yes
Cantwell: do you believe James Fields had a fair trial in Charlottesville?
Heimbach: no
Dunn: objection, move to strike
Judge Moon: sustained, strike
Cantwell: what did you mean when you said that James Fields did nothing wrong?
Heimbach: …his vehicle had been attacked and he likely feared for his life
Cantwell: do you believe [name] is responsible for death of Heather Heyer?
Dunn: objection
Judge Moon: sustained
Cantwell: let’s talk about Hitler and national socialism for a while, shall we…
Cantwell asks Heimbach various fan-type Qs about Mein Kampf, has Heimbach say Hitler didn’t write about killing Jews and merely “advocated for law and order”
Seems like Cantwell is now trying to convince the jury that Hitler was actually a good guy
Cantwell: do you recall Hitler talking about torches…
Heimbach: no
More enthusiastic and admiring Q & A between Cantwell and Heimbach about Mein Kampf.
Cantwell: do you believe that Adolf Hitler… murdered 6 million Jews?
Heimbach: no
Cantwell: no further questions
Joshua Smith, Heimbach, Parrot and TWP’s lawyer, says he has no cross-examination questions for Heimbach
Karen Dunn (attorney w plaintiffs) is now doing re-direct examination on Heimbach
Dunn: defense counsel asked you some Qs about an event in Auburn… in April 2017… Mr. Spencer gave a speech, you attended and so did other TWP members?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you recall that you had shields at that event?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn pulls up a video from the Spencer Auburn event and plays it for the jury – it shows Heimbach and other TWP members with wooden shields at the Auburn event while some yell ‘sieg heil’
Dunn: do you see yourself?
Heimbach: I do
Dunn: and do you see yourself running with a shield?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you recall being asked about this in your deposition, correct?
Heimbach: I don’t recall exactly
Dunn: you were asked whether this video shows you charging towards a group of counter-protesters, do you recall that your answer was yes?
Heimbach:…yes, for the purpose of we believed that…
Dunn: you, and other TWP members are charging into a group of people?
Heimbach: charging in relation to the fact that we believed that a comrade had been caught and was being attacked…
Dunn: so you believed that your belief that a comrade had been ‘caught’ justified you running full force with shields into a group?
Heimbach: towards a group of ppl, not into a group of ppl…yes I believed it would have been reasonable to prevent a violent assault…
Dunn: but in your deposition you didn’t mention a violent assault, this is the first we’re hearing of it
Dunn: so, your conduct in this video, you believe was justified as self-defense?
Heimbach: no one was struck so it was not self-defense
Dunn: in your deposition you said the reason for charging w shields was to defend someone in TWP, you stand by that answer, correct?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: there was an event in Sacramento in July 2017, you recall that?
Smith objects: this is beyond the scope of cross
Dunn: it is not.. a substantial amount of direct examination was about this idea of self-defense at rallies and we are trying to probe that… this is in response to their examination on cross…
Judge Moon: why are you going into some new event on re-direct?
Dunn: we’ve discussed that Mr. Heimbach is saying the reason that he charged into a group…is that he thought it was justified…what we are entitled to establish is that this is a pattern, this has happened before
Judge Moon: is it a pattern that he is going towards a friend that is being attacked, is that what you’re trying to establish?
Dunn: it is a pattern that Heimbach & TWP take action that they believe is self-defense but is not self-defense
Dunn: I’m going to ask him about a logo of his organization which is a defendant in this case
Dunn: Mr. Heimbach…take a look at PX-3840… this patch was displayed by TWP members after the incident in Sacramento?
Heimbach: yes
defense objects, says it isn’t relevant exhibit is shown to the jury – its a patch that says “Sacramento Spartans, 6/26/2016” and shows a man striking another man from behind with a stick or a pole
Dunn: you were asked about your post from 2016 that said “hit the gas”, you referenced the 1992 Reginald Denny incident… you were also asked some Qs about communications that you had with both Mr. Cantwell and Mr. Spencer…?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: we’d like to show you PX-3137…you’re aware plaintiffs filed this lawsuit on October 11, 2017… this is a text from October 12, 2017…
Smith objects Dunn: your honor, he was asked repeatedly about communications between Cantwell and Spencer & himself to establish the lack of those comms… we are entitled to ask about comms and the lack thereof…
Judge Moon: go ahead
Dunn: You recognize this to be a text between yourself and Mr. Spencer from Oct 12, the day after this lawsuit was filed?
Heimbach: yes
Judge Moon forbids Dunn from showing the text to the jury: “I think this is beyond the scope”
Dunn: you used an Android cell phone to discuss the events in Charlottesville and text the other defendants… and you said in deposition… you couldn’t remember any text conversations you had with anyone…?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you replaced your phone.. and said you did it bc your 2-year-old busted your phone beyond repair… you did not produce for this case anything from your phone that you used before, during or after ‘Charlottesville 2.0’, correct?
Smith objects
Dunn: the reason that communications do not exist in part is that we did not receive in discovery any communications from Mr. Heimbach… we are entitled to say in response to them saying that communications do not exist, why we did not receive communications…
Dunn: so we just discussed, Mr. Heimbach, that you replaced the Android phone.. and you used the new.. phone to send messages concerning Charlottesville 2.0…
Heimbach: I can’t recall exactly…
Dunn: you sad in your deposition that you used that phone to send messages regarding Charlottesville 2.0…
Heimbach: it could be…
Smith: excuse me, are you saying you want to admit that testimony?
Judge Moon to Smith: please don’t talk to the other lawyers
Dunn: your honor… Heimbach has testified that he had two phones, the first phone he used to send texts about the event… the second phone I asked him if he sent texts related to…Unite The Right.. he said he didn’t remember so I’m reading to him from his deposition…
Dunn: the Android phone, we agree that we didn’t get anything from that… the Blackview phone you said was replaced by your wife.. as a birthday present.. so you didn’t produce messages you sent and received related to Charlottesville.. from that phone, correct?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you also had an Asus laptop that you used to create documents for this event.. you testified that the only steps you took to preserve evidence as to place the phone and the laptop in an uncovered plastic tub..?
Heimbach: I’m a working class guy…
Dunn: you’ve testified that you didn’t tell your lawyer at the time that the phone and the laptop were in a plastic tub… you claim that after a domestic dispute your ex-wife gave your neighbors permission to dispose of the tub?
Heimbach: along with all my other stuff
Dunn: with regard to the phone, that was replaced as an early birthday present, that was your first wife.. in regards to the tub… that was your second wife?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you also testified that your second wife deleted your VK (Russian social media, like FB) account after you had an argument about taking out the trash?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn: you also said that your second wife did the same thing with your Gab account, that she deleted it after an argument about taking out the trash?
Heimbach: a similar argument
Dunn: and you said that you liked social media so much that this was her way of getting back at you?
Heimbach: yes
Dunn asks Judge Moon for permission to play a video exhibit for purposes of impeachment – Exhibit # PX-3472
Judge Moon tells the jury “if Mr. Heimbach has…done anything regarding…discovery… it is not to be considered by you as evidence against any of the other defendants, it only pertains to him…”
Judge Moon: “some of this evidence only applies to the party that the court tells you, and you’re required not to use that evidence against any of the other parties…”
Dunn plays an audio clip of Cantwell interviewing Heimbach where Heimbach says “I was on Gab but my account.. is no longer there”…Cantwell asks Heimbach if he deleted his account, Heimbach says “I had to delete my account… I was afraid to make another one… but I’m gonna get an account..”
Dunn: you recognize your own voice in this audio?
Heimbach: I wasn’t going to announce a domestic dispute to Cantwell’s audience
Dunn: so when you said in the podcast that you “had to delete your account” that’s not true, and it’s still true that your wife deleted your account when you had an argument about taking out the trash?
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: you don’t deny that that’s just what we heard you say…?
Heimbach: correct
Judge Moon: who were you talking to in that recording?
Heimbach: Mr. Cantwell
Judge Moon: When was the date of that?
Karen Dunn: Nov 12, 2018
Dunn pulls up a document – “these are your interrogatory responses in this case… you were asked on cross about your conversations with the Charlottesville Police Dept… …you see that question 6 asked you to identify each communication you had with members of law enforcement… you said “Mr. Parrott and I called Charlottesville PD or some other agency to coordinate plans..I can’t remember who i spoke to or the interaction..”
Heimbach: correct
Dunn: no further Qs at this time
Cantwell: may i re-cross?
Judge Moon: yes
Cantwell: Mr. Heimbach have you listened to more than one episode of the Radical Agenga? [Cantwell’s show]
Heimbach: yes
Cantwell: can you tell me how the Radical Agenda is marketed? Do you understand the Radical Agenda to be an entertainment product?
Heimbach: absolutely
Cantwell: why did you say on my radio show that your lawyer told you to destroy evidence?
Heimbach: because… [pauses]
Judge Moon: go ahead, answer the question
Heimbach: bc a domestic dispute is …embarrassing… and not fit for an entertainment product…
Josh Smith: when you referred to a lawyer were you talking about me?
Heimbach: no
Defendant Matt Heimbach is now dismissed as a witness
Diane D’Costa Testimony
Integrity First For America attorney Roberta Kaplan calls plaintiffs’ next witness – Diane D’Costa – she works as a middle school teacher in DC and has a bachelor’s degree from UVA. She began attending UVA in fall 2017, graduated in spring 2018. D’Costa says she’s Jewish Were you involved in organizations while you were an undergrad?
Diane D’Costa: i was an RA, a tour guide, part of a Jewish women’s group at the Hillell…. was VP of my class In August 2017 were you entering your senior year at UVA?
D’Costa: yes
Where were you selected to live?
D’Costa: I was selected to live on the lawn – the historical part of our grounds, where the Rotunda is.. was built in 1817…
D’Costa is asked to describe more details about students’ rooms on the UVA campus lawn. D’Costa moved into her housing in the UVA lawn on August 11, 2017
Before you moved into your room on August 11, had you heard anything about the Unite The Right rally…?
D’Costa: I had heard about the rally on August 12 but didn’t know anything about the 11th
Had you heard anything about who would be coming for that rally?
D’Costa: … white nationalists, the alt-right
After you moved in what did you learn about plans for the evening of August 11?
D’Costa: I learned that night that some of the white nationalists might be coming that night
Were you in your room that night? What did you hear?
D’Costa: I heard the chants of ‘you will not replace us’ and “Jews will not replace us’
Can you describe the tone of what you were hearing?
D’Costa: a guttural angry chant of ‘Jews Will Not Replace Us’… it kept going
Was your door closed when you heard that?
D’Costa: yes, I was looking through my peephole to see what was happening
What did you see?
D’Costa: I just saw the flames going from the south end of the lawn north… a continual stream of flames
Where were the people in relation to your front door that you were looking through?
D’Costa: my door opens straight onto the lawn, they were no more than four yards in front of me
Describe how you felt at that moment?
D’Costa: I was terrified, as a Jewish person
defense: objection, emotional impact
Judge Moon: alright she’s just telling her present sense impression
D’Costa: it was terrifying, I was scared for my life, my chest started tightening up and there was ringing in my ears …
Could you tell before opening the door how many people were outside?
D’Costa: I couldn’t tell
What happened next?
D’Costa… I got a knock on my door from Dean [name] saying Diane, Diane, Diane, come with me… I opened the door for her
What did she say to you?
D’Costa: She told me to come to her pavilion
What did you do next?
D’Costa: I flipped over a painting that had Israeli flags on it, hid my Hamsa necklace … it’s a symbol in Judaism…
defense: continuing objection to any emotional impact from this witness
D’Costa describes a Jewish prayer ring she was wearing at the time – says she hid this & other items because “if they knew I was Jewish that I would have a threat to my personal safety… my room would be a target…”
What did you hear?
D’Costa :they were still chanting Jews will not replace us….[describes going to the Dean’s pavilion and a balcony that overlooks the UVA lawn – says she took video from the balcony, plaintiffs have D’Costa identify her Snapchat video]
Diane D’Costa’s Snapchat video of the torch rally is getting played to the jury now – shows a line of torches in the distance with chats of “Jews will not replace us”. The video has a Snapchat “geo-filter” w UVA building and the words “From outside my door… I have no words”
Where were the marchers going that you were watching?
D’Costa: they came from the south end of the lawn… marching up towards the Rotunda and I could see some folks coming from the alleyways.. joining the crowd marching towards the Rotunda…
What’s on the other side of the Rotunda?
D’Costa:… the Jefferson statue
So from the balcony… could you see the Thomas Jefferson statue?
D’Costa: no
Did there come a time when the marchers and the torches were out of your view?
D’Costa: yes.. Did you stay in your room that night?
D’Costa: no, I did not want to be anywhere near the lawn that night, I went to meet a friend to stay at his place.. he pulled up in the alleyway and I ran out the back..straight to his car… it was like I was fleeing my house…
What did you do the next morning?
D’Costa: I woke up to alerts of state of emergency and I drove to Maryland
How did you physically feel over the next several days…?
Judge Moon: she’s adequately explained what happened…
Can you describe for the jury what you witnessed Friday night?
D’Costa: I saw a mass of people carrying lit torches chanting “jews will not replace us” and I was very confused as to why they were there… I didn’t know what Jews and to do with the Robert E. Lee statue… a mass of people chanting outside my front door
Seems like no defendants except pro se defendant Chris Cantwell have cross-examination questions for Diane D’Costa
Cantwell: you moved into UVA on August 11?
D’Costa: For my fourth year, yes
Cantwell: and so you had already known, as you’re moving in, about the August 12 event?
D’Costa: I heard that something was happening but didn’t know the scale
Cantwell: prior to the arrival of the men with the torches someone told you that something was gonna happen on UVA campus?
D’Costa: we heard that something might happen
Cantwell: who is we?
D’Costa: other students Cantwell: Can you tell me the names of those students?
Plaintiffs: objection
Cantwell: your honor, I wanna know who infiltrated those communications of ours and plotted to attack us that night and then blamed us for that violence…
Plaintiffs: object to Mr. Cantwell’s speech to the jury
D’Costa: I heard about it from the senior resident advisor of the lawn who I think heard it from the dean or UVA administration at some point
Cantwell: are you familiar with a website called ItsGoingDown.org?
D’Costa: no
Cantwell: are you familiar with a website called Unicorn Riot?
D’Costa: no
Cantwell: are you a member of any activist groups?
D’Costa: no
Cantwell is asking D’Costa about the location of her former dorm room, its proximity to the pavilion
Cantwell plays D’Costa’s Snapchat video showing the torch rally on the UVA lawn – “did I hear you say that you saw a swastika tattoo on a man’s arm?”
D’Costa: when I was leaving my room… the man closes to me had a swastika tattoo
Cantwell says the video seems shot from far away, D’Costa clarifies she saw the swastika earlier, from a closer distance of 4-12 feet, while changing locations
Cantwell: why would you leave the apartment?
D’Costa: there’s no bathroom, I was by myself… the only way out was towards this crowd…
Cantwell: you said something to the effect of “it was the most victim…” and you stopped, what were you gonna say?
D’Costa: it was the most traumatized I’ve ever felt as a Jewish person.. I had reason to believe that these people were angry, they were hating who I am…
Cantwell: and so if they had been chanting “Students against Jewish supremacy” would you have felt better about it?
D’Costa: I don’t think I would have felt better about anyone lighting flames in front of my door
D’Costa is dismissed as a witness, Judge Moon reminds jurors she isn’t a plaintiff
Lunch break until 1:30 PM, says Judge Moon
Lunch Break
Judge Moon is back in court, says he wants to discuss a couple things with the parties to the case before the jury comes back. Judge Moon says “a witness may only testify on contents of a video based on personal knowledge of the matter” – this is addressing issues Dunn raised earlier during the League of the South’s lawyer Bryan Jones’ cross-examination of Matt Heimbach.
Professor Deborah Lipstadt Expert Testimony
The plaintiffs are bringing in expert witness Professor Deborah Lipstadt – Lipstadt specializes in debunking Holocaust denial and was nominated by President Biden to serve as the United States Special Envoy for Monitoring and Combating anti-Semitism.
Judge Moon has the court call the jury back in, Professor Lipstadt is now being sworn in as a witness Roberta Kaplan (@IntegrityforUSA/ plaintiffs’ attorney) asks Professor Deborah Lipstadt to introduce herself – she’s been teaching since 1975 and is a scholar specializing in the Holocaust, has written several books about the Holocaust and Holocaust Denial.
Kaplan: Do you write peer-reviewed academic articles?
Lipstadt: I do… dealing with aspects of history of the Holocaust… of antisemitism, exploring different facets..
Kaplan: were you asked by the plaintiffs in this case to render an opinion?
Lipstadt: yes i was…asked to to review emails, podcasts…[various materials] sent to me relating to the Unite The Right rally and around it
Kaplan: what opinion did you form from that?
Lipstadt: there was a great deal of overt anti-Semitism and adulation of the Third Reich throughout the evidence that I looked at.
Kaplan: were you asked to give an opinion about if any of the defendants conspired to commit racially motivated violence?
Lipstadt: no, that’s not my area of expertise
Kaplan: did you write a report basd on this research?
Lipstadt: I did
Kaplan shows her the report but notes it wasn’t admissible as evidence
Kaplan: how would you define anti-Semitism?
Lipstadt: despising someone… maybe wanting to do them harm.. because they are a Jew
Kaplan: in the course of your career… have you formed opinions on common forms of anti-Semitism?
Lipstadt: yes, theres a “template” of certain “charges” and comments in contemporary anti-Semitism… one having to do with…Jews controlling the economy…Jews being smart in an “evil” or “clever” way…Jews punching above their weight, being small in number but somehow managing to control society… and Jews being like a “devil” that harms you without you knowing
Kaplan: does anti-Semitism appear across the political spectrum?
Lipstadt: yes, its ubiquitous…
Kaplan: is anti-Semitism limited geographically?
Lipstadt: it can be all over the place, even places where there are no Jews.. the idea is so old.. it is rooted in other places
Asked to define the Holocaust, Lipstadt calls it “the state-sponsored genocide…” of Jewish people “by the Hitler-regime…if you were a Jew or they considered you a Jew…you were to be annihilated…”
Kaplan: there’s been some discussion in this case already about Hitler… what was Hitler’s role in the Holocaust?
Lipstadt: He was the driving role of the Holocaust…he was very clear that every Jew must be destroyed… he believes that for Germany to be the strongest nation possible it must eliminate the Jews because the Jews are the source of all evil…
Kaplan: how many people were killed in the Holocauast?
Lipstadt:” approximately 6 million Jews… but it was not just Jews that were killed…”
Lipstadt notes that “Roma and Sinti people” and political dissidents were also killed en masse
Kaplan asks about a lawsuit Professor Lipstadt once faced from Holocaust denier David Irving, who sued her after she mentioned him as a Holocaust denier in one of her books. Irving sued Lipstadt for libel in the UK – “it was a very long trial, about 10 weeks, and we won overwhelmingly” and says the Judge noted Irving “twisted the facts” “deliberately”
Kaplan asks Lipstadt if she’s heard the term “holohoax” before – she says she has and explains it in terms of for people who deny the Holocaust to be right, “who would have to be wrong?” – says historians and witnesses would have had to have been “duped” for that scenario to work
Kaplan: what does Hitler say about Jews in Mein Kampf?
Lipstadt: He says that Jews are foreign to the ‘volk’, the people.. that if there’s a problem in Germany, they are the ones responsible for it
Kaplan: have you heard of the Daily Stormer?
Lipstadt: yes, it’s a play on the name of a Nazi newspaper, Der Sturmer.
Kaplan shows Lipstadt the Daily Stormer’s style guide where it says “Prime Directive: always blame the Jews for everything” – has Lipstadt read the section out loud – “As Hitler says, people will become disheartened if there is more than one enemy…”
Kaplan: are those ideas reminiscent of Mein Kampf?
Lipstadt: yes… I’m reluctant to call him a genius… he understood very well how propaganda works and that if you give people nuance….people get confused, but if you say to them, it’s that one group…people will be more ready to accept it… you simplify it…and repeat it..
Kaplan has Lipstadt read another portion of the Daily Stormer style guide: “This basically includes blaming Jews for the behavior of other nonwhites…”
Kaplan: in this kind of anti-Semitism whats the relationship between Jews and “other nonwhites”?
Lipstadt: replacement theory, the conspiracy theory that Jews control “other nonwhites”… to destroy societies which have been primarily white… if you feel the nonwhites… are doing bad things., blame the Jews…
Lipstadt says “replacement theory” began to “gain more traction in the 90s” in the USA due to the general advancement of Black people in society – “they were convinced that people of color could not be doing this on their own there had to be someone behind the scenes…”
Kaplan: are you aware of “replacement theory” having other names?
Lipstadt: white genocide…
Kaplan: in the materials you reviewed in this case did you see “replacement theory”?
Lipstadt: a lot, more than I expected to Kaplan shows a video exhibit showing the August 11, 2017 torch rally where marchers are chanting “Jews will not replace us”
Kaplan: can you tell me whether the tiki torches… have any resonance in terms of the issues that you study?
Lipstadt: when used in a rally…that is very much evocative… of the propaganda techniques of.. Joseph Goebbels.. every.. major event.. he would organize one of these marches with fire…torches…for a historian…the connection is absolutely clear
Kaplan shows Lipstadt a sentence from a Heimbach writing about Unite The Right being “another successful nationalist event… America’s nationalists have finally set aside their bickering…to deliver a clear and simple white nationalist message – we will not be replaced”
Lipstadt: it’s not just nationalism…it is a white nationalist message… and it is to some degree a call to arms – “we will not be replaced” – it’s not just a rally to… feel good.. this is a call to battle… if someone is out to replace you… what’s in the cards is a a possible elimination of your group…if they don’t succeed Jews will do the replacing and they will use people of color, non-Christians… but they will be doing the replacing behind the scenes…”
Kaplan has Prof. Lipstadt read another Heimbach writing out loud about “We need to scare these people” and “send a message to the Jewish oligarchs…”
Lipstadt: “it’s a call to arms… this is a call to battle”
Kaplan pulls up a tweet from League of the South leader Michael Hill that reads, “If you want to defend the south and western civilization from the Jew and his dark-skinned allies, be at Charlottesville on August 12”
Kaplan pulls up a tweet from ‘NewGiantDad’ (James Alex Fields) that includes the neo-nazi mantra ‘the 14 words’,
Prof. Lipstadt says “this is what it is… this is a battle to ‘secure the existence of our people’ and …’white children’… a call to arms”
Kaplan: why do you think someone would associate the 14 words with Adolf Hitler?
Prof. Lipstadt: That’s exactly what Hitler was saying, what he was proposing…that this is a war, not just a war to win territory but a war of annihilation…either we annihilate our enemies or they annihilate us.. there’s no doing it part-way, we have to do it all the way.
Kaplan plays a video of Daily Stormer defendant Robert ‘Azzmador’ Ray giving a speech after Unite The Right in Charlottesville on August 12: “The Jew has been drinking our blood for millennia and now rules over us… they intend to exterminate us…”
Kaplan: can you please explain how these words relate to themes of anti-Semitism you talk about in your books?
Lipstadt: ‘drinking our blood’ goes back to very old tropes of Jews eating blood in their Matzoh..you even had Bishops & Cardinals saying ‘this is not true’ back then…
Kaplan shows Lipstadt this Discord post from Matthew Heimbach archive about Jews being the “enemy of mankind”:
Lipstadt says the Heimbach discord post is an example of the anti-Semite seeing their fight as an “existential struggle”
Kaplan plays PX-2514, a video of the May 2017 ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ afterparty where alt-right members are chanting ‘sieg heil’
Lipstadt: that means ‘hail victory’ and was associated with the 3rd reich so heavily that it was outlawed after the war…
Kaplan: what was the gesture the men in that video were doing with their arm?
Lipstadt: it’s an outstretched arm… it’s ‘hail victory, hail Hitler’
Kaplan: have you heard the phrase Blood and Soil?
Lipstadt: “it was very popular in Germany..associated with the 3rd Reich.. what it’s saying is – if you were not of our blood… you are foreign to us, you are an enemy to us…”
Kaplan asks Lipstadt about the anti-Semitic slur “kike”, Lipstadt points out that in materials she reviewed for this case it was often spelled as “kayak” to avoid online filters
Kaplan shows Lipstadt violent posts w anti-Semitic slurs from Chris Cantwell as well as an August 12 rally video of Robert ‘Azzmador’ Ray ranting about “semitic tribes” “ruling you”, denying the Holocaust and asking “did Hitler do anything wrong? to which the crowd responds “no”
Kaplan: how did what Mr. Ray was saying relate to the themes we’re discussing…?
Lipstadt: you’re under the control of the “semitic tribe”, the Jew..
Kaplan plays a clip of Ray at Unite The Right yelling “this is the true precept of the true-alt right: gas the kikes race war now!”
Lipstadt: this is a clear celebration of “killing implement” that defined the Holocaust – the Third Reich had practical issues & emotional considerations for soldiers doing mass killings so “they sought a faster, more efficient way of killing and so they devised the gas chambers”
Kaplan pulls up a private Discord message from Nathan Damigo (username ‘FashyHaircut’) where he shares a password “StopTheHate1488” – Lipstadt explains this is a reference to both the “14 words” neo-nazi mantra and the ’88’ numerology for ‘Heil Hitler’
Kaplan shows a picture of a flag that is a confederate flag with a “black sun” symbol imposed over it – Prof. Lipstadt explains the origins of symbol are from a building built as a spiritual retreat for the nazi S.A.
Kaplan shows a picture of James Alex Fields marching holding a shield with the Vanguard America logo with two crossed fasces – Lipstadt explains the history. of fascist use of the fasces as a logo – says “people in the club know what it means” and its less overt than a swastika
Kaplan shows a pic of a National Socialist Movement standard flag using the Odal Rune, and ancient pagan symbol that Lipstadt explains is also known as a nazi symbol and is often used as a less objectionable stand-in for a swastika.
Roberta Kaplan is done questioning Professor Deborah Lipstadt, expert witness and scholar specializing in debunking Holocaust denial – Judge Moon calls for a 20 minute recess before the defense can cross-examine Lipstadt
Afternoon Break
Judge Moon is back in court, soon we’ll be seeing cross-examination of Holocaust scholar Professor Deborah Lipstadt by the Sines v. Kessler defendants – all of whom are Holocaust deniers…
Richard Spencer: I have no questions
Christopher Cantwell: I do
Cantwell shows a social media post of his that was already shown where he talks about “America will never be free until the last kike is strangled with the entrails of the last male democrat” – do you understand that this is derived from another quote?
Lipstadt: No, I don’t
Cantwell pulls up Heimbach’s Discord post about “the total destruction of Jewry” – Cantwell points out there there’s quotation marks around the sentence that Heimbach posted
Cantwell: In the course of your studies of anti-Semitism did you come across any jokes?
Lipstadt: yes
Cantwell: did you come across any jokes that are just jokes?
Lipstadt: I don’t know what you mean
Cantwell: do you ever come across anyone who just makes an anti-Semitic joke from time to time?
Lipstadt: if you make a joke at the expense of someone… it may not be just a joke
Cantwell: is it your opinion that there’s no such thing as an innocent racist joke?
Lipstadt: I would say yes, that’s correct
Cantwell: have you ever heard the joke “two Jews, three opinions?” – is this a negative stereotype…?
Lipstadt: not necessarily…
Cantwell is getting down into the weeds w Lipstadt about whether or not Hitler wrote about torches in Mein Kampf
Cantwell: if someone was going to make a joke about Jewish people would the Holocaust be an easy target?
Lipstadt: I find it hard to believe that a genocide that killed 6 million people… couldbe a target for jokes
David Campbel (James Fields’ lawyer) references Fields’ tweet w the 14 words and the pic of Hitler: you’re not saying whether that post has any relation to the Unite The Right rally correct?
Lipstadt: no
Campbel: no further Qs
no other cross-exam from defense
Re-direct from Kaplan:
Kaplan pulls the Heimbach Discord post w the quotation marks back up, asks Lipstadt to read into the record the quote right above it – “hey btw, while ive got y’all here. Im writing the section of the book on Jews. Thoughts on this for a closer?”
Prof. Lipstadt has been excused from the witness stand – the plaintiffs are about to give a presentation of various documents pertaining to Robert ‘Azzmador’ Ray from the Daily Stormer – a defendant in the suit who has been on the lam and not responded to the case at all.
Plaintiffs’ Presentation of Evidence Related to Robert ‘Azzmador’ Ray (Defendent)
The plaintiffs show one exhibit from Feb 19, 2017 from a Discord server called ‘N*ggK*ke Bar Mitzvah’ by ‘Azzmador’ (Robert Ray) – shows a guy in an ape mask chasing a Jewish man while trying to hit him.
A Discord DM between Azzmador and Heimbach shows Azzmador sending Heimbach a Discord invite link.
Plaintiffs show an April 20, 2017 article ‘Azzmador’ (Robert Ray) wrote for the Daily Stormer celebrating Hitler’s birthday and calling him “the greatest political leader of the Twentieth Century, and most likely of all time…”
The next exhibit is a May 12, 2017 Discord message in a Discord chat called ‘Aquilonia’ where Azzmador writes “This is the modern era Zeiger, we prefer aluminum baseball bats now” and talks about whacking someone’s skull and the sound it will make. (‘Zeiger’ refers to Canadian Daily Stormer writer Gabriel Soheit-Chaput, who attended Unite The Right.)
Another plaintiff exhibit shown is a 6/19/17 Discord DM between Azzmador and Andrew Anglin discussing swastika flags.
A June 29 Discord post from Ray in the ‘Thunderdome’ Daily Stormer Discord talks about “soon it will be doable. I want to invest in race-specific bioweapons..”
July 16 2017 in Vanguard South District general channel Discord chat – Azzmzador writes “Hatred absolutely comes naturally to us… There is absolutely nothing wrong with hate… it is absolutely natural and good that one hates his enemy”
July 16 2017, general channel in Vanguard South District discord: “when you go to war, you should always behave like beasts, killing machines… war means the death of your enemy, the destruction of his ability to ever challenge you again…” – Azzmador
July 17, 2017, general channel, Vanguard South District discord: “@ RCO Nick-TX’ we’ve been doing a background check via several methods… the Discord thing is serious business… you can’t be letting people in until they’re at least at prospect level…”
Discord DM from Azzmador on July 19 2017 to ‘Jason AW#4051’: “There are 2000 antifa coming. You gonna represent?… this is a war, not a party”
Latveria discord, general channel:
Zeiger: apparently one of the divisions going to the rally will be with shields
Vanguard South District discord July 19, 2017
Azzmador: There was no program to kill Jews. They were forced to work for a few years and now we’ll never hear the end of it…
Charlottesville 2.0 Discord, general channel:
Azzmador: thus far I am batting 1000. No antifa or oathcucker has been able to withstand me or my bully squad at any event
Plaintiffs show this exchange w Azzmador and another UTR attendee:
Discord DM – July 23, 2017, between Azzmador and ‘RCO Nick-TX’
Azzmador: the last step is Kessler himself. DS guys were giving him shit over not having… at the event, so he contacted me last night… the last thing he wants is 1488ers who are less than enthusiastic…
Azzmador: I’m a White Supremacist. Apparently that’s the term you have to use to be clear with these idiots
Plaintiffs show a lynching meme Azzmador posted in a neo-nazi chat called ‘Bowl Patrol’ – [learn more about Bowl Patrol from their leaked chats in our investigation here.]
Plaintiffs show this Discord exchange w Azzmador from the Charlottesville 2.0 chat:
July 28 2017 Azzmador Discord post in events channel in Thunderdome sever – “I just got done with an hours long chat with some of the event organizers… the plan is the same, gas the kikes.. PR war… plenty of trolling and lulz”
Plaintiffs show other Discord posts from Azzmador in the Latveria Discord about Daily Stormer affiliates from DFW area bringing shields and banners to Charlottesville.
July 31, 2017 Discord post from Azzmador in the ‘Azzmador’ Discord server – “everyone go to your local Dollar Store or Walmart.. and get a tiki torch, there will be a torch march”
Azzmador Discord posts in ‘Thunderdome’ Discord on August 1 2017 – “wear a Daily Stormer tee if you have one, a dark plain tee if you don’t“
August 2 2017 – “gas the dune monkeys“, “gas the niggers too”
August 3 2017 in Latveria Discord – “yeah its a hardcore banner, when it arrived and I unrolled it it had visions of pogroms and gas chambers lol” – Azzmador August 3 2017
Discord posts in Vanguard South District discord:
SonderSchutz: Ahh antifa is fucked now
Azzmador: I’m looking forward to BLM more than antifa. Blacks are the easiest people to trigger….
Vaunguard South District discord server:
‘Hyperborean Vanguard’ posts a pic of a pile of helmets w Traditionalist Worker Party logo on them
August 6, 2017 Discord DM from Thomas Rousseau to Azzmador features a Unite The Right poster saying “join Azzmador and the Daily Stormer to end Jewish influence in America”
Azzmador discord server on August 7, 2017 – “I need everyone to get together and by Tuesday… I need you guys to have picked 2 officers… which for the time being will be known as Stormleaders…from Stormers who are going to CHarlottesville…I need at least two bodyguards..”
August 7, 2017 Latveria server in general channel, Azzmador writes to Andrew Anglin “I’m writing a Cville story now, I’ve been in chats… the last 3 days I must have spent 50 hours networking with various groups within and without the organization..”
August 7, 2017, Latveria Discord server, Azzmador posts a meme that w Hitler that says “get in loser we’re invading Charlottesville”
“Our guys need to get a grip on the fact that they’re gonna have to physically fight these people” – Azzmador on August 8, 2017 in Latveria Discord-
“You prevent violence by having big guys – juiced or not – who are prepared to fight…what you want are big guys ready to choke someone out in 7 seconds” -Andrew Anglin to Azzmador on August 8, 2017
“The only thing I’m gonna have is pepper spray and my commie-whacking cane, LOL… the laws on the pepper spray are it’s fine if you spray an attacker, but you get charged if you hit the wrong person…“
– Azzmador August 8, 2017 in Thunderdome discord
“If you want to be armed bring a shield, a flag and OC pepper gel” – Azzmador August 9, 2017 in ‘Azzmador’ channel : “I will be both elated and humbled to stand with you men and address the media and fight the hordes of filth and scum..“
Latveria discord, August 9, Azzmador: “check this out! My boys have been hard at work” w a picture of shields w black sun symbols
August 11, 2017 in Latveria discord: Azzmador posts a pic of a group of Daily Stormer guys sig heil-ing outside a PetSmart in a parking lot
Plaintiffs play a video of Azzmador giving a news interview w a Daily Stormer shirt saying “they want to destroy white history… the promotion of interracial relationships…is part of the problems in this country…”
Plaintiffs show a pic of Azzmador/Robert Ray in the same shirt at the UVA torch rally, and point him out in other photos of the violence at the rally showing him spraying pepper gel at the rally. Other photos are shown of Azzmador & his bodyguard after the torch rally.
Plaintiffs are playing a clip from Robert Ray aka Azzmador’s livestream from early on the morning of August 12, 2017 showing him ordering a group of young men with shields in a marching formation. A group with an Identity Evropa flag is seen following his group. Plaintiffs’ exhibit cuts to a clip later during the Unite The Right rally of Robert Ray/Azzmador yelling about wanting to kill Jewish people to applause. He’s in front of a Daily Stormer banner. More clips from the Azzmador August 12 stream are being played – he introduces guys to each other and Daily Stormer fans introduce themselves to him.
“It’s humor but we mean it.” – Robert Ray aka Azzmador in Unite The Right livestream
Plaintiffs play a clip from the infamous Vice documentary of Robert Ray/Azzmador talking about his work for the Daily Stormer and how “we are stepping off the internet in a big way…we greatly outnumber the anti-white..filth… we will clear them from the streets forever…”
Plaintiffs play a clip of Robert Ray aka Azzmador at an afterparty after Unite The Right reading a violent anti-Semitic speech prepared by Andrew Anglin.
Plaintiffs’ presentation of the Robert Ray (‘Azzmador’) evidence is done now.
Eliott Kline aka ‘Eli Mosley’ (Defendant) Video Deposition
Plaintiffs are playing video of the Eliott Kline/Eli Mosley deposition now – he has a much larger beard in this video than he was seen with in most earlier photos.
Deposition interviewer is asking him about having lived with Samantha Froelich in SC and VA
Q: you were dating Ms. Froelich from summer 2017- Thanksgiving 2017?
Kline: yeah
Q: in 2017 did you consider yourself to be a white nationalist?
Kline: yeah
Q: in 2017 how would you describe your views w respect to Jewish ppl?
Kline: that they were different from white ppl and they were not part of the… a separate group than white people
Q: do you recognize this as a discord post by you as ‘Eli Mosley’?
Kline: yes
you went by ‘Eli Mosley’, correct?
Kline: yes
You see this is a DM between you and someone w the handle ‘Kurt#8752’ from Aug 11 2017… you say “I hate jews”
Kline: yes
Kline admits that he would refer to himself as “Judenjagers” or “Jew hunter” T
he deposition seems to have been conducted over Zoom or similar method where the interviewer is showing Kline his Discord posts and asking him about them. He sometimes makes a wide-eyed face when shown certain posts
Q: you joked about ‘gassing the kikes’ correct?
Kline: yes
Q: what’s funny about that?
Kline: i don’t know how to explain the humor… but anything I said was all joking
Q: do you recognize your voice on that audio recording?
Kline: yes
Q: and it was from something called ‘The War Room’ on March 20, 2017 and you said that you “work in HR firing niggers and spics all day”… correct?
Kline: yes
Deposition questioner is going over the Daily Stormer style guide w Kline now, specifically the part about “the unindoctrinated should not be able to tell if we are joking or not.”
Q: you followed these guidelines, correct?
Kline: i had read these before
March 26, 2017 Discord DMs between Kline & Weev:
Weev: the style guide is a short read, just try to look it over
Kline: yes I’ll follow it to the T...
Kline asked to explain the “day of the rope” says its a “joking kind of ‘when people rise up’ kind of thing”
Q: does it refer to the mass murder of race traitors and minorities?
Kline: It depends on who you ask or what the context is
Eli Mosley posts in discord called NiggKike Bar Mitzvah on May 19 2017:
Eli Mosley:
they are scum
they deserve their fate
goodbye jews
they deserve the rope
Kline: “it’s clearly a joke…”
Q: in 2017 you believed in creating a white ethnostate, correct?
Kline: I guess you could say that
3.5.17 post by Eli Mosley in N*ggK*ke Bar Mitzvah discord:
“Hail victory! We are going to win our ethno state…”
Q: hail victory is the german translation of seig heil, correct?
Kline: i don’t know German… uh yeah i guess it is
Q: at some point you became a member of IE [Identity Evropa], correct?
Kline: yes
Q: when was that?
Kline: I want to say January of 2017
Q: did you heave leadership roles in IE?
Kline: yes.. Idk what the titles were but I would help with.. day to day running of the organization and then after Unite The Right I became leader for a month or two but then i left the organization
Q: Nathan Damigo founded IE… he punched a woman at the ‘Battle of Berkeley’… is it safe to say his punching had a big impact on membership for IE?
Kline: yes, we had more applications but the people who applied weren’t necessarily the people we were looking for…
Q: these are DMs on Discord between Reinhard Wolff [Patrick Casey] and norah fox [Sam Froelich]
Kline: they together ran.. stuff
4.16.17 Discord DMs:
Reinhard Wolff (Patrick Casey): Jesus, we’re swamped. Nathan should punch women in the face more often.
norah fox: hahahahaha
Eli Mosely text after DC alt right event:
“Yea it was dope. Tackling that antifa was fucking awesome.and then running through the streets was great and I hooked up with some alt right chick from Poland in Spencer’s room after the party”
April 17, 2017 Discord DMs between weev and Kline/Mosley:
weev: white supremacist street fighting is the only way forward politically
Eli Mosley: It is awesome, and i’m one of the 3 bodyguards for Spencer lol
Mosley: i get to beat up liberals like 3 times a week
Kline: those were just jokes
Eli Mosley discord DM sent on August 6 2017:
“Right but I’ll have people with me and I’ll also be able to pull police and stuff too. Also antifa knows not to fuck with me. The last person that did I gave 12 stitches to lol“
Kline claims that DM was “just a joke” also J
une 12, 2017 Eli Mosley Discord DM:
“I beat up the commies in DC and Philly..”
Q: you’ve referred to yourself as evil correct?
Kline: maybe as a joke i guess
April 22 2017 Discord DMs between Caerulus_Rex (Brian Brathovd) & Eli Mosley:
Mosley DM to Brathovd: “Well see if he is interested. I would love to have him and meet him as well. I post as Eli Mosley of the Daily Stormer, IE, TRS, Counter-Currents, NPI and great friends with League of the South, Vanguard America and TWP…”
Q: you wrote a Daily Stormer article about ‘Charlottesville 1.0’, correct?
Kline: …yes
Questioner reads the Eli Mosley Daily Stormer article which uses racial slurs and celebrates the May 2017 event
Q: when planning events for the alt-right was your primary mode of communication Discord?
Kline: yes
Q: did you have the ability to kick ppl off Discord?
Kline: on some servers
Q: did you use that right?
Kline: not frequently
Q: is it fair to say in 2017 that you knew everyone in the alt-right?
Kline: not everyone but I knew how to get in touch w a lot of ppl
Discord DM on July 28, 2017 from Eli Mosley to TheBigKK:
“I have the contact info for everyone in the alt-right”
Q: When did you first meet Jason Kessler?
Kline: at the anti-war rally in front of the white house… after Trump bombed Syria
Q: When did you first discuss Unite The Right w Jason Kessler?
Kline: I think it was that night
June 5 2017 text between Kline & Kessler:
“You and I should get used to speaking daily now, now that this is my full time job I’ll be much more available to you”
Q: so you agreed to Mr. Kessler to plan Unite The Right together?
Kline: yes.. we spoke 4-5 times per week
Q: is it fair to say you and Mr. Kessler discussed your views regarding Jewish ppl in 2017?
Kline: maybe a little bit…it was more a focus on planning
Q: did you and Kessler have the same views on Jewish ppl?
Kline: maybe, he really wanted to focus locally and we were looking at the national picture
Q: is it fair to say that you shared w Mr. Kessler your views about Black ppl in 2017?
Kline: maybe he and I had similar views
Q: did you have the same goals for Unite The Right that Mr. Kessler did?
Kline: probably not June 5, 2017 post by Jason Kessler in Alt Right Events Project discord server: “This event is going to be more like Battle of Berkeley 2”
Q: can you identify a single post you made in the leadup to UTR where you advocated for non violence?
Kline: other than the audio call that was leaked, no
Q: And by that point you knew the discord had been compromised, correct?
Kline: i suspected…
Q: you exchanged messages w Nathan Damigo?
Kline: I was removed from that Slack at some point but i’m not sure
Q: you and Mr. Damigo agreed to encourage Identity Evropa members to attend UTR?
Kline: yes
Q: When did you meet Richard Spencer for the first time?
Kline: Jan 2017, maybe a little bit before that.. at a dinner in DC
Q: who invited you to the dinner?
Kline: Someone in Identity Evropa but I don’t remember who, i was still new at the time
Q: in 2017 you sometimes stayed at Richard Spencer’s loft?
Kline: yes
Q: he was an important friend of yours in that time period?
Kline: yes
Q: you collaborated.. you provided security for some of his events?
Kline: yes
Q: did you discuss w Mr. Spencer his views on Jewish people? Black people?
Kline: yes
Q: Spencer gave you authority to make decisions for him?
Kline: sometimes July 20 2017 DM from Eli Mosley talks about seeing David Duke as an “ideological grandfather” and talking to people from League of the South
Q: Do you know Matt Heimbach?
Kline: yes
Judge Moon: let’s stop there and resume tomorrow morning.. how much longer do we have on this…?
Karen Dunn: 40 mins your honor Judge Moon releases the jury until 9 AM tomorrow
