Sines v. Kessler Rush Transcript – Day 9: Eli Mosley and Richard Spencer
Charlottesville, VA – The lawsuit against leading white supremacist organizers and groups began trial on October 25, 2021 at the federal courthouse in Charlottesville, Virginia. Attorneys with civil rights nonprofit Integrity First For America are representing victims of racist attacks at the ‘Unite the Right’ rally in Charlottesville in August 2017.
Official Court Transcript [Courtesy: Integrity First For America] [Click HERE to Download .PDF]
1639753609-2021-nov-4-moon-sines-v-kessler-cvl-jt-day9-finalTranscript of Eliott Kline (Eli Mosley) deposition as played at trial [Courtesy: Integrity First For America] [Click HERE to Download .PDF]
1641845851-elliot-kline-deposition-as-played-at-trialAdditional Resources via Integrity First For America: Trial & Deposition Video Transcripts • Searchable Database of Plaintiff’s Trial Exhibits
Unicorn Riot’s rush transcript from the day’s proceedings is below. While the official court transcript is more comprehensive, UR’s live notes sometimes contain visual descriptions of elements not noted by the court reporter, including the visual appearance of exhibits shown at trial, movements of parties in the courtroom, and happenings in and around the courthouse.
NOTE: Rush transcripts are generated from Unicorn Riot’s live tweets posted in real-time while observing trial proceedings from inside the courthouse media room. Quotations and descriptions written here are not always precise verbatim quotes and sometimes use paraphrasing or shorthand to quickly capture and convey exchanges during court hearings. There may be some errors regarding details like jury numbers, exhibit numbers and dates as well as typos and missing punctuation. These rush transcripts do not capture every single moment but are our attempt to provide the public with as much direct access to the trial as possible until full court transcripts are made publicly available at a later date.
Unite The Right On Trial:
Rush transcripts: Day 1 | Day 2 | Day 3 | Day 4 | Day 5 | Day 6 | Day 7 | Day 8 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 11 | Day 12 | Day 13 | Day 14 | Day 15 | Day 16
Read Unicorn Riot's live tweets from trial proceedings - Day 1 | Day 2 | Day 3 | Day 4 | Day 5 | Day 6 | Day 7 | Day 8 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 11 | Day 12 | Day 13 | Day 14 | Day 15 | Day 16 | Day 17 | Day 18 | Day 19
Day 9 – Nov. 4, 2021 (Collected from this tweet thread)
This day of testimony included playback of the Eliott Kline deposition (known as ‘Eli Mosley’ in the white supremacist movement). Then the testimony of white supremacist leader Richard Spencer ran until the end of the day. (Jump to Spencer testimony) Both Kline and Spencer are defendants in the lawsuit.
9th day of trial in the ‘Sines v. Kessler’ Charlottesville suit brought by Integrity First For America against Unite The Right organizers is getting started- Judge Moon is talking about various objections to evidence that’s been shown recently.
Yesterday afternoon, the plaintiffs began playing video of their deposition of Unite The Right organizer Eliott Kline aka ‘Eli Mosley’ – the video will resume shortly and there is about 40 mins of it left.
The jury is coming in for the morning now
Eliott Kline aka ‘Eli Mosley’ (Defendant) Video Deposition
The Eliott Kline/Eli Mosley deposition video is being played again now.
He’s asked when he first met Matt Heimbach, he says he thinks it was at ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ in May 2017. Says Heimbach tried to get him to join TWP.
Kline says he acted as a ‘liaison’ with several members of Vanguard America.
He’s shown a June 7 2017 Discord DM he sent to ‘Francisco VA’:
“…I’ve been heavily working w some VA guys for a while now and we should have a conference with some…stuff including Cville my number is…“
Kline says he was at a Vanguard America ‘afterparty’ to Unite The Right and Thomas Rousseau, Robert Ray aka ‘Azzmador’, Chris Cantwell and others were there. Kline/Mosley is asked about the ‘Charlottesville 2.0’ Discord server – says he mostly posted in the ‘leadership channels’.
Q: you had moderator authority, correct?
Kline: yes
Q: in 2017 you were on 36 Discord servers, correct?
Kline: yes
July 28 2017 Discord DM from Eli Mosley to TheBigKK:
“Like I am in 26 Discord servers and like 5 slack chats for the alt right. I get like 200-300 messages between discord, twitter, fb and slack. So it’s hard to keep up”
Q: you said you ran Unite The Right like it was a military operation.. was that also a joke?
Kline: it was tongue in cheek… wouldn’t say it was a joke but it was obviously kind of ridiculous
Q: you said UTR was your full time job?
Kline: yes
IE was helpful in organizing UTR?
Kline: yes
Patrick Casey and Nathan Damigo were involved?
Kline: yes
IE was paying you during the time you were organizing the rally?
Kline: yes
You were also on Spencer’s payroll throughout 2017?
Kline: yeah
In relation to bodyguard stuff?
Kline: not sure what…weird things I helped him with…website work… a bunch of stuff… I wasn’t paid to bodyguard
In terms of Unite The Right, you planned out each piece of the event, correct?
Kline: with Kessler and people I planned out the broad idea of what it was we were going to do… communicated, liason between different groups of people
Q: you put together a document w an outline of each piece of the event?
Kline: that was for people that were coming and weren’t part of a group… for instance League of the South & TWP planned their own thing… I didn’t know what their plan was
Kline is shown a group Discord DM he was in w ‘security group for UTR… Richard Spencer’s bodyguards…” Tyrone, McCarthy, Kurt, Caerulus_Rex, Heinz – MI, a username we can’t see on screen & Ajax.
“Everyone… is an IE member except Caerulus Rex” – Kline
Aug 9 2017 Mosley to group DM: “here is the google doc version of that document. The main pieces we need to edit are… details on each piece of the event….”
Kline is asked about organizing and running “leadership meetings” for Unite The Right. Kline says leadership meetings for Unite The Right were held on a roughly weekly basis
Asked who represented each group in the chats he says he doesn’t remember.
Q: How many ppl would attend?
Kline: idk maybe a dozen
Kline says he had weekly meetings with Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer about Unite The Right.
June 16 2017 Text from Kline to Spencer:
“These people are insane. This is a FB post about them doing a pre-event to prepare for Cville. Look at this corporate language as compared to our military language document… ”
Q: You referred to yourself & others planning UTR as a “resistance fighting force”, correct?
Kline: yes
Asked who from the Charlottesville police he spoke with before Unite The Right, Eliott Kline says he only spoke once to a detective whose name he doesn’t remember – says Caerulus Rex (Brian Brathovd) and Michael Tubbs from League of the South mostly handled comms w the cops
Kline is shown in his deposition video a text from he sent to Jason Kessler: “give me your opinion on this press release from Kyle [Chapman]”… ” I think it’s alright except he kind of backs himself into a corner by saying some of our guys aren’t nazis. I think he needs more wiggle room just in case there are salutes…”
Kline’s deposition interviewer (sounds like plaintiffs’ attorney Karen Dunn) is now going over a flyer for Unite The Right, Kline agrees that the flyer includes confederate and nazi imagery. Kline says organizers approved the chant “you will not replace us”, says that was originally an Identity Evropa (IE) chant. Kline is asked about his leadership role in IE, says he had the authority to “approve activism” for members.
Dunn pulls up a text Richard Spencer sent to Kline/Mosley on June 14, 2017:
“This is going to be a violent summer”
Q: Was a goal in holding Unite The Right to express your views about race?
Kline: yes
Q: was a goal in holding Unite The Right to create an ethnosate?
Kline: no
Q: was a goal in holding Unite The Right to unite white nationalists against other races?
Kline: no
instilling fear?
Kline: No
To be a battle in RaHowa?
Kline: No
What about having confrontations, was that a goal?
Kline: no
You anticipated that violence would occur?
Kline: against us , yes
You’re aware some participants on Discord believed there would be a shootout, yes?
Kline: Bc we would be attacked, yes
Dunn shows Kline DM’s he was sent from former IE member ‘Heinz – MI’ on August 8, 2017:
Heinz: Eli what is your opinion of having a group of people that are open carrying to act as a QRF? Kurt is talking to me and is convinced that this will turn into a shootout
Dunn shows Kline a convo involving ‘Kurt’ discussing ‘impaling people’ at Unite The Right on Discord.
August 11, 2017 post by Kline in “leadership” channel in Charlottesville 2.0 discord:
“I need to get in touch with one of the fake antifa people account people stat… Preferably one of the more believable ones…”
Q: is it fair to say if you’re Jewish… or African-American and at night you see a group of ppl w torches that would cause you to be fearful?
Kline: I have no idea
Q: attendees were encouraged to buy their torches in advance.. and bring lighter fluid?
Kline: yes
Q: the torch march was kept a secret?
Kline: it was leaked but it wasn’t as public as the rest of the rallies
Q: you believed it should not be made public?
Kline: yes
Q: Where did you stay in Charlottesville?
Kline: It was an Identity Evropa AirBnB
Q: Was that AirBnB where you were with Nathan Damigo, Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler when Spencer went on his tirade?
Kline: yes
Q: the group had drones flying in advance of the group [at the torch march]?
Kline: yes
Kline is asked details about the torch march, marchers surrounding UVA students at the statue.
Did you see the counter-protesters with any signs?
Kline: not that I remember
Any weapons?
Kline: not that I remember
In your view the torch march was a success?
Kline: generally speaking, yes
You texted Mr. Kessler that evening saying ‘great work’?
Kline: yes
On the evening of August 11 did you disavow any of the violence that happened that night?
Kline: I’m unsure
Dunn shows a Discord post from Nathan Damigo on August 10 2017 in the Identity Evropa Discord: “We will be going to Charlottesville with or without a permit. The city council can shove their permit up their ass”
Q: You saw 2 or 3 street brawls, correct?
Kline: yes
Q: and you were yelling out orders as you were walking along towards Emancipation Park, yes?
Kline: yes
Dunn is playing a video from the morning of Unite The Right on august 12, shows Eliott Kline aka Eli Mosley giving orders to a large group of young white men with shields as they march forward in formation in the street
Q: that was you in the white polo?
Kline: yes
Q: you were yelling orders at this group of rallygoers… leading them in a group?
Kline: yes
Dunn resumes play on the video, it shows the group led by Kline continuing in the street – some of the group including Rise Above Movement members Ben Daley and Michael Miselis – is soon seen pushing, punching and choking counter-protesters.
Kline claims the protesters were punched because they were “blocking our way in the sidewalk.. denying someone right of passage through force” (most of the street was open in the video). Kline also claimed not to recognize Ben Daley.
Dunn shows another picture of specifically Daley and Miselis in a smaller group with their hands taped up and Kline/Mosley is seen to be yelling orders at them. Daley seems to be carrying a section of PVC pipe, Kline claims he didn’t notice the pipe at the time.
Q: You communicated with Kessler, Hiembach… did you communicate w Mr. Damigo at UTR?
Kline: yes
Q: did you see members of Vanguard America at UTR?
Kline: yes
Q: did you see TWP… League of the South at UTR?
Kline: Yes
Q: Members of Rise Above Movement?
Kline: yes
Q: you were a leader of the group at UTR, correct?
Kline: yes
Dunn shows Eliott Kline/Eli Mosley another video showing him leading Vanguard America members including Thomas Rousseau chanting “Blood and Soil” on the morning of August 12, 2017 in Charlottesville.
Dunn plays part of the video again to show that James Alex Fields, who later carried out the deadly car attack, was marching in that same Vanguard America formation being led by Eliott Kline/Eli Mosley.
Dunn shows Kline/Mosley a pic of himself standing listening on his phone in the park during Unite The Right as James Fields stands in the background.
Q: is that a speck of blood on your shirt there?
Kline: I’m not sure… probably
Dunn shows Kline a December 2017 text he sent to ‘Antifa cat lady’ saying “Fields was from DS forums” [DS = Daily Stormer]
Kline: Maybe I found out later that he was a Daily Stormer forum person but I’m not sure how I found that out
Dunn plays Kline/Mosley another video showing him in the park on the morning of Unite The Right seeming to give orders to a formation of Traditionalist Worker Party members led by Matthew Heimbach.
Dunn shows Kline another video clip of himself from the Unite The Right VICE doc – he’s on the phone telling the police “I’m about to send 200 people with guns to get them out if you do not get our people out”
Dunn: after Unite The Right you felt it was important to shut down the Discord, correct?
Kline: yes
Dunn: you took over as the leader of Identity Evropa after Unite The Right…until November 2017… when Damigo asked you to leave the organization…?
Kline: Damigo and I had differences… over where we wanted to go with the organization.. he wanted to give Patrick Casey the CEO title
Attorney Karen Dunn w @IntegrityforUSA tells the court that Eliott Kline aka Eli Mosley’s video deposition has now concluded.
Richard Spencer (Defendant) Testimony
The plaintiffs are now calling Richard Spencer as a witness. Integrity First For America attorney Michael Bloch is questioning Richard Spencer – currently Bloch is asking him about his university studies in “post-German idealism”.
Bloch: you decided at some point that you didn’t want to pursue academia as a career… you wanted to do something more public facing…?
Spencer: yes… I was offered a job at the American Conservative magazine…
Bloch: at some point after leaving academia, you became an “advocate for white people”?
Spencer: I don’t like that term but..sure
Bloch: In 2017 you said you believed Black people and white people should be segregated?
Spencer: no…
Bloch: you gave testimony previously… you were deposed…
Spencer: if i used a word like segregated then.. I might have used one word then.. it’s not the words itself it’s about what I believe…
Bloch: you swore to tell the truth…in that deposition were you asked – “you believe the races should be segregated” and you said “ultimately, yes”
Spencer: i don’t remember that.. but I don’t think you’re misrepresenting me… it’s simply a semantic issue
Bloch: did you say Black and Hispanic people are part of an undesirable underclass that you don’t want?
Spencer: I don’t think I said that.
Block is moving audio into evidence.. plays a portion of a podcast in which Spencer says those words almost exactly.
Bloch: you also said Hispanics and African-Americans are lower IQ than whites?
Spencer goes into some nervous rationalization about what he thinks about IQ…
Bloch: did you say it’s an empirical fact that Black and Hispanic ppl have lower IQs and are more likely to commit crimes?
Richard Spencer: i don’t think I said that…
Bloch plays another podcast clip where Spencer says those words almost exactly. Bloch: Did you say the words that are on the video showing that you said those words?
Spencer: Those exact words, I don’t know why we’re getting hung up on exact terminology
Bloch: was that you on that video?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: In August 2017, you stated that colleges “bring in negroes with 80 IQ to go play football and rape white cheerleaders?”
Richard Spencer: i’m not sure…
Bloch plays audio of Spencer saying literally that
Spencer: that’s my voice, yes.
Michael Bloch plays a 2016 video of Richard Spencer giving a speech where he says “America was until this past generation a white country.. for us it is conquer or die”
Bloch: when you said ‘for us it is conquer or die’, by us you meant white people, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: one of the things you advocate for is a white ethnostate… you agree with me that the logistics of actually separating the races is not easy..?
Spencer: that’s why that notion is a telos.. it’s a big idea like communism… it’s an ideal of reinstating the Roman Empire…
Bloch: you said creating an ethnostate could be “bloody and terrible”?
Spencer: if you say so, I’ll take your word for it..
Bloch: “well, don’t take my word for it..”
Bloch plays an interview clip where Spencer agrees w a news interviewer that it could be “bloody and terrible”
Bloch: you said the ethnostate could come about after a “geopolitical cataclysm”?
Spencer: those moments are usually terrible and something usually comes out of it
Bloch: a cataclysm is a large scale violent event?
Spencer: a terrible trauma, yes
Bloch: in other words a white ethnostate does not arise without a violent race war?
Spencer: i’m not sure I’m saying that
Block: In 2017 you felt like you were part of a movement?
Spencer: in 2017, I felt that way, yes
Bloch: you were trying to effect social change?.. and you realize that you can’t do that alone, right?… a movement needs inspirational leaders… and a movement needs followers… a movement needs foot soldiers?
Spencer: if that’s metaphorical, yes
Bloch: In 2017, fair to say that you had built a significant following?
Spencer: I was a well-known figure
Bloch: you were president of the National Policy Insitute, an organization that advocates for white people?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you personally co-wrote a report called Race 101… that argues that the average IQ of African-Americans is lower than the average IQ of white Americans?
Spencer: yes
Bloch describes numbers of followers on Spencer’s 2017 listserv and Twitter, Spencer agrees
Bloch: you also founded and had become editor of a website called alt right dot com?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and you created the phrase “alt right?”
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you would agree with me that you are a powerful and bold speaker?
Spencer: thank you, yes Bloch: you had become one of the leaders of the white nationalist movement in this country by 2017?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you were friends and collaborators with Nathan Damigo?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: Eliott Kline was too?
Spencer: for 3 months before Unite The Right, yes
Judge Moon calls for a 20 min recess –
Morning Break
Judge Moon is back in court – plaintiffs’ attorney Michael Bloch is about to resume questioning Richard Spencer
Bloch: Eliott Kline was an important friend of yours in 2017 and he was also in important high ranking member in Identity Evropa, correct?
Spencer: yes
Block: you were aware of his views of Jewish and Black people?
Spencer: probably…yes
Bloch: you knew Jason Kessler and Matt Heimbach prior to Unite The Right?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you had attended white nationalist events w Mr. Heimbach
Spencer: yes
You knew of.. Chris Cantwell… before Unite The Right, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: You’re aware Cantwell had a show called Radical Agenda.. you were a guest on the show prior to Unite The Right…?
Spencer: I don’t remember but that’s possible
Bloch cites Spencer’s deposition transcript where he said he had been on Cantwell’s show.
Bloch: you’ve heard Mr. Cantwell express his views towards Jewish and Black people.. you’re aware he has a reputation for being anti-Semitic and racist…?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: as a leader of the alt-right.. there’s certain things you will say in private that you won’t in public, correct?
Spencer: I think that’s true for everyone on the planet
Bloch: and that includes you, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch asks Richard Spencer about his using a anti-Semitic and racist slurs “privately but not publicly”
Spencer: I don’t believe in demeaning anyone to their face… that is not a word to be used to demean anyone publicly
Bloch: you said you would use the n-word “privately but not publicly” in your deposition, correct?
Spencer: yes…
Bloch: you’re familiar with the nazi salute, that’s something you would only do in private settings, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: because you understand that they are offensive…reprehensible to most people, correct?
Spencer: yes.. I am not out here to be mean and nasty.. in public
Bloch you only use that kind of language and gestures w ppl who share your goals…?
Bloch: you’d agree with me that Eliott Kline wouldn’t be offended if you used the word [slur]?
Spencer: correct
Bloch: you claim you’re not a white supremacist… you claim that you don’t look down on Black..Jewish people… but you only claim those things publicly, isn’t that true..?
Spencer: I think what you’re referencing is the tirade from August 2017 that was secretly recorded…
Bloch: would you agree that when you’re in private.. you had no problem saying any of those things..?
Spencer: I’ll certainly be looser in private…
Bloch pulls up another exhibit, the “tirade” and plays it for the jury. It features Spencer yelling and screaming, using various racist and anti-Semitic slurs and talking about wanting to “ritualistically humiliate them”, “my ancestors use to enslave” them etc The rant includes Richard Spencer saying “we’re gonna destroy this fucking town”, referring to Charlottesville.
Bloch: at the time you were in a room with Jason Kessler, Nathan Damigo, Eliott Kline and a few other white nationalists?
Spencer: Correct
Bloch: at the time you believed you were in private, that recording was made secretly, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: isn’t it true that those are your sincerely held beliefs?
Spencer: no…moments like that… capture my most childish embarrassing sentiments…my animal brain
Bloch: you believed the movement you built had made a breakthrough in 2016… and was building in 2017…?
Spencer: correct
Bloch: and one of your goals for the alt-right in 2017 was to “dominate the streets” correct?
Spencer: yes.. that’s a metaphor…
Bloch plays an October 2017 audio clip for the jury of Richard Spencer saying “2016 was the meme war, 2017 is the IRL war… in 2017 we’re fighting shoulder to shoulder in the streets….”
Bloch: when you say 2017 is the IRL war IRL stands for “in real life” Bloch: you’re familiar w the concept of triggering… provoking… one of the goals of white nationalist rallies in 2017 was to trigger other people, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you’re familiar with the ‘Battle of Berkeley’… a number of white nationalist groups attended that event including Identity Evropa and your friend Nathan Damigo… your friend Nathan Damigo punched a 19-year-old woman in the face and knocked her down, right?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you didn’t attend that event but you did watch videos of the violence that occurred on social media at the time… the same day?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: in a video on AltRight dot com you called what happened at Berkeley “a new normal, a world of political violence”?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you wrote “politics is fundamentally non-consensual… about the use of force”…?
Spencer: yes
Spencer complains that it’s “utterly unfair” for Bloch to expect him to remember what he said in his deposition. Bloch gives him a copy of the deposition transcript
Bloch: Isn’t it true that the day after the “Battle of Berkeley” you thought that the footage of the fights that you saw was, in your words, “quite beautiful?”
Spencer:.. you seem to be endlessly going on this trek of, ‘of did you say this’, ‘oh there it is’…
Bloch has Spencer read a quote from himself calling the April 2017 street violence in Berkeley “beautiful” etc
Bloch: did you say those words..?
Spencer: i was describing the aesthetics…
Bloch plays audio of Spencer saying “we are in a war for the right reasons… the right reasons to go to war is you want to dominate someone… take their territory, take their women…don’t cuck out on me and tell me ‘defense’… I’m talking about.. conquest…domination…” A man talking w Spencer on the audio praises the “nihilist desire to kill somebody”, Spencer says “I agree”… Spencer in the audio recording says he hopes the “White American base… might flip over into this domineering type…you display your power, phallic symbols in the center of the capital city”
Bloch: did you say those words..?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: one of the things that you talk about is… dominating people…
Spencer: this is all in the context of a podcast where we went into.. geopolitical speculation about world history…I’m referencing Nietzsche…
Bloch: looking at what’s on the screen… is that a text message between you and Eli Mosley?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and that was sent on June 6, 2017?
Spencer: apparently, yes Bloch shows the jury this
Richard Spencer – Eli Mosley text exchange from 6.6.17:
Eli Mosley:
then punch a woman in the face
Richard Spencer:
Dude.
We don’t punch women in the face.
That’s something filthy Arabs would do.
We open-hand slap them to demonstrate authority….
Bloch: is it true for you these rallies are about crushing your enemies?
Spencer: no, they’re about sending a message… I had an egotistical message to speak before a crowd
Bloch shows the jury a Tweet Richard Spencer sent on April 29, 2017 that says “our message to the #antifa is not “muh free speech”…Our message is WE WILL CRUSH YOU!”
Bloch: did you tweet that?
Spencer: yes, this is tough talk.. the equivalent of a peacock giving off a display
Bloch: you helped organize Charlottesville 1.0, correct?
Spence: to a fairly limited degree…
Bloch: didn’t you refer to yourself as one of the co-organizers?
Spencer: I might have
Bloch: you were at a meeting at the Charles Martel Society where the idea for Charlottesville 1.0 was hatched… Eliott Kline and Nathan Damigo were there, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: did you agree with Jason Kessler that Charlottesville 1.0 would ’cause a stir’?
Spencer:…yes
Bloch: you met w your codefendants in this case there?
Spencer: Nathan Damigo, Matthew Heimbach, Jason Kessler… yes
Bloch: about 200 ppl showed up to Cville 1.0.. and you were happy about that..?
Spencer: right
Bloch: there was a dinner where a number of ppl gave speeches…? Kessler, Damigo, [and] you gave a speech?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: in your speech you referenced a meme that said “I was born too early for the crusades, i was born too early for the conquest of Mars but I was born at the right time for the race war?”
Spencer: i was referencing a meme, yes
Bloch: and after you said that the group of 200… exploded into cheers and applause?
Spencer: I bet they had seen that meme too
Bloch: there was a torch march that night?
Spencer: yes
Bloch shows a photo of Spencer w a torch at the May 13, 2017 nighttime ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ event – you were aware that the KKK and the nazis used torches and torch marches?
Spencer: the idea that torch light rallies are unique to those 2 groups is ridiculous but go on…
Bloch: is it true that the idea for the torch march came from Nathan Damigo who wanted it to be like a torch march in Germany?
Spencer: I don’t remember… the general sentiment is that mystery and magic of fire and darkness
Bloch: is it true that Damigo sent the group a youtube link to a video of a torch march in Germany saying that the group should do something like this?
Spencer: I don’t remember
Bloch: Nathan Damigo sent you a Slack dm to a video of a torch march in Germany…does this refresh your recollection?
Spencer (raising voice): No… I don’t remember that exact Slack message
Bloch: after the torch march you attended an afterparty at a house rented by Identity Evropa.. including Mr. Kline, Mr. Heimbach, Mr. Damigo… that was a private party…
Spencer: yes
Bloch shows the jury a video of the group sig heil-ing at the afterparty.
Bloch shows the jury a photo of Richard Spencer, Matt Heimbach, and neo-nazi podcaster Matt “Enoch” Peinovich embracing, smiling and doing the “OK” symbol at that same May 2017 afterparty.
Bloch is now asking about a text exchange between Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler later on in May and June 2017 that led to discussions regarding planning for Unite The Right. Bloch shows the jury a string of texts between Spencer & Kessler
Bloch: you understood this meant Kessler was interested in fighting counter-protesters? Spencer says no.
Bloch pulls up Spencer’s deposition transcript where he answered yes to this same question
Bloch: you stated that “over the course of the year 2017 Mr. Kessler and I shared some 26 instances of direct messages over iMessage..”
Spencer says the “26 instances” don’t refer to “all of the messages” but different “instances” of “conversations””
Bloch: you took the text messages that you had with Jason Kessler and you grouped them in some way that you decided was appropriate and told the jury?
Spencer: … I was asked to detail all my communications with everyone and yes I would group those in a way that. made sense…
Bloch: to you?
Spencer… of course it made sense to me, I’m the one who’s thinking
Bloch: you shared 149 text messages w Kessler [over time period]?
Spencer: correct
Bloch: you said you had 7 phone calls w Kessler…did you group phone calls together?
Spencer: i came up w that by looking at my AT&T wireless… I did a search of his number… it had minutes and I added those together
Bloch: the 7 phone calls that you had w Kessler.. those were in August 2017?
Spencer: i don’t remember, I don’t know….
Bloch: why don’t we also look at your phone records…
Bloch shows Richard Spencer’s AT&T phone records on the screen – currently shows 6 calls between Spencer & Jason Kessler in May 2017. Changes the slide, it then shows 1 call he had w Kessler in July 2017. The next slide shows another 6 calls he had w Kessler in August
Bloch: can we agree that’s actually 13 phone calls w Kessler?
Spencer: yes.. i might have been referring to… conversations… that adds up
(So to recap: Richard Spencer told the jury in opening arguments he only had 7 phone calls with Unite The Right organizer Jason Kessler. The jury just now saw proof he had 13.)
Spencer: I don’t think i was mischaracterizing anything.
Bloch: there were emails.. in addition to the texts, phone calls and emails, you also met with [Kessler] to discuss Unite The Right?
Spencer: I think we met briefly at the American Renaissance conference [in July 2017]…
Bloch shows these texts between Spencer-Kessler in July 2017:
July 25, 2017 texts between Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer:
Kessler: Sounds like we have a lot of organizations scrambling to get speaking slots at the last minute… we’ll accommodate as many people as we can but they need to make arrangements to get up front early…
Spencer: Are you going to AmRen?
Kessler: yes
Spencer: We can talk there.
Bloch: so you had designated other people to communicate with Kessler on your behalf?
Spencer: people like Eli Mosley or Greg Conte… were enthusiastic about security… it was a way of not speaking to him… I didn’t want to talk to Kessler.. I don’t really like him…
Bloch just went over this 6/9/17 text exchange between Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler:
July 9, 2017 tests between Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer:
Kessler: we should speak on Sunday (later today) about how to prepare for Aug 12th. Using middlemen all the way through isn’t going to work. We need to roll up our sleeves.
Spencer: Hey why don’t you talk to Eli or Greg Ritter about security
Kessler: we’ve got security on track, I was more interested in talking to you about messaging and presentation
Spencer: it’s obvious I was trying to blow him off
7.23.17 text from Spencer to Kessler:
Spencer: Could you talk to either Eli or Greg Ritter? They make all security decisions for me
Bloch: Ritter’s real name is Greg Conte, he worked with you at the National Policy Institute.. he was your right hand man in regard to Unite The Right.. and your bodyguard at Unite The Right, correct?
Spencer: yes… I would delegate security to Mr. Conte
Bloch: Mr. Conte communicated with.. Kessler… and.. Kline.. on your behalf?
Spencer: correct
Bloch: you stated that you weren’t on the Charlottesville 2.0 Discord server… but Conte… your right-hand man.. was on the… server, correct?
Spencer: I’m not sure
Michael Bloch: Jack Pierce goes by ‘Ajax’… he also was part of your security team…?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and he too was on the Charlottesville 2.0 server…?
Richard Spencer: I don’t know that
Bloch: you’ve stated that you had “no role whatsoever in the logistical planning of the rally or any type of conspiracy”..?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: one of the things you communicated w Kessler about.. was promoting the event?
Spencer:…yes… let’s move on
Bloch shows Richard Spencer a tweet where he shared a promotional poster for Unite The Right – it uses confederate and nazi imagery and includes a list of speakers including Spencer.
Bloch: you also discussed with Mr. Kessler who else would speak at the event, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you suggested speakers to Mr. Kessler… you also promoted the people who would speak at the event…?
Spencer: that’s fair
Bloch: you also helped Mr. Kessler obtain insurance for the event when the insurance company rejected him?
Spencer: I remember him texting me..about losing insurance and I’m sure I responded in some way…
Bloch: In addition to Mr. Kessler, Eliott Kline was also one of the organizers of Unite The Right, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: shows this June 5, 2017 text to Richard Spencer from Eliot Kline/Eli Mosley:
Eli Mosley: I’m driving to South Carolina now. 7 hours out. When you get a chance, no rush, let’s talk about the discord so I have some general orders on how you want that thing ran. Also feel free to let me know anything you want me working on this week and of if you can send me a calendar… tomorrow morning I’m gonna be getting Charlottesville part two started up as well as the Saturday antisharia stuff.
Bloch is showing Richard Spencer his AT&T phone record printouts showing his numerous calls w Eliott Kline aka Eli Mosley in May, June, July & August 2017 – a few dozen.
Bloch: you also texted with him nearly every day?
Spencer: that’s accurate
Bloch: you also met with him in person?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you had regular in-person meetings?
Spencer: there were.. activism discussions… it would have included Unite The Right…
Bloch points to a part in Spencer’s deposition where he said he was having regular meetings with Greg Ritter, Eli Mosley, and Jason Kessler – “And Charlottesville 2.0 was regularly discussed at those meetings?” – Spencer had answered “yes” in his deposition
Bloch: you also asked Mr. Kline to set up a separate Discord server jut for alt-right leaders in May 2017… and that separate server was also intended to be for discussing Unite The Right?
Spencer: …that would have been part of what was discussed…
Bloch: you communicated with Eliott Kline about whether David Duke should be invited to Unite The Right?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: would it be fair to say.. you developed a clear understanding of what Mr. Kline’s objectives were for Unite The Right?
Spencer: ehhhhhhhh…. yes
Bloch: Mr. Heimbach testified yesterday.. and you asked him questions. You had a phone call w him in May 2017.. that was shortly after Cville 1.0… in your questioning of Heimbach you asked him in court yesterday what you guys talked about… any you knew the answer to that, you were on that call… what he said was “I think we mostly talked about our families”. Isn’t it true you also talked about white nationalism?
Spencer: that is a very broad topic
Bloch: it’s broad, but is it true that it doesn’t include talking about your families?
Judge Moon is complaining about Bloch’s line of questioning, telling him he’s “taking too much time” and should not “quibble”.
Moon declares a recess for an hour until 1:30 PM
Plaintiffs’ attorney Michael Bloch’s Qs to Richard Spencer will continue after lunch.
Afternoon session
Richard Spencer is back in the witness stand – looks like we’re waiting for Judge Moon to return to the bench and call the jury back in.
Judge Moon is back now – jury isn’t back in just yet, Bloch is addressing a clerical issue where he used the wrong number for one of the exhibits referenced earlier.
Bloch’s direct examination of Spencer is resuming now, he’s asking about Spencer’s comms with Nathan Damigo
Bloch: you had a weekly call with Damigo, Kline, and Conte in the summer of 2017, correct?
Spencer: I think we wanted to have a weekly call but maybe not weekly…
Bloch: you discussed Unite The Right on those calls, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: as you understood Mr. Damigo’s objectives, you shared them?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and Mr. Damigo’s objective was to encourage people outside Charlottesville to attend?
Spencer: people in Identity Evropa, yes
Bloch: between July-August you exchanged 88 text messages with Mr. Cantwell [despite telling the jury you had fewer]
Spencer: I think i was referring to “instances” where we had an exchange…
Bloch: but you said “we shared a few text messages, 7 in total” isn’t that what you told the jury?
Spencer:…
Bloch: but you exchanged 88 texts in just that 6-week period alone:…
Bloch: you also told the jury that you just had 1 phone call with Mr. Cantwell?
Spencer: if you have more accurate information I welcome that…
Bloch: but I have the same phone records you had…
Bloch shows Spencer’s 2017 phone records showing phone calls w Cantwell: 1 in July, 2 in August, for a total of 3. (Spencer told the jury there was just 1 total)
Bloch: in addition to texts and phone calls you also attended a number of white nationalists with your co-defendants…including a rally in DC in June of 2017… you gave a speech at the rally and Kessler, Damigo and Cantwell spoke?
Spencer: yes
Bloch shows the jury a tweet Spencer posted from DC of a selfie he took with Chris Cantwell, as well as a video of Spencer at the June 2017 DC event – Bloch plays the video for the jury, it shows Damigo handing a mic off to Cantwell in front of the Lincoln Memorial. Nathan Damigo had been leading the crowd in a chant of “moldylocks” – a reference to the 19-year-old woman Damigo punched in Berkeley. Bloch points out the Identity Evropa and Traditionalist Worker Party flags that are there and how Spencer and Kessler are pumping their fists to the chant. Bloch also directs Spencer’s attention to the Vanguard America flag at the DC event, the sybol of an eagle flying holding a fasces in its claws.
Bloch: were you, Damigo, Kessler, Kline and Cantwell celebrating the violence Damigo had committed in Berkeley six weeks before?
Spencer: …yes
After that there was an afterparty at your ‘fashloft’ correct?… ‘fash’ is short for fascist?
Spencer:…yes
Bloch: you had 3-5 parties in the summer of 2017 where Unite The Right was discussed?
Spencer: yes
Those were private, nobody recorded them?
Spencer: i don’t know… well, i hope not
Bloch: someone named Samantha Froelich was there at the time of the party? She was in Identity Evropa and was dating Eliott Kline?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you told the jury that you had attended events prior to Charlottesville and that it was “remarkable” how those events were “safe”, correct?
Spencer: yes – Auburn, Texas A&M etc
Bloch: let’s talk about Auburn – your codefendants Heimbach and Cantwell were there… their were fights w counter-protesters correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and some of the counter-protesters were beaten pretty badly?
Spencer: …it was a highly controversial event…
Bloch: at the April 2017 DC event, a counter protester tossed glitter on you… isn’t it true that Mr. Kline then chased down the counter-protester and clotheslined him?
Spencer: “tossing glitter” suggests it was like a party.. what he did was “glitter bomb”… he ran up to me and threw glitter on my face… it could have been acid.. the attempt to do that is to intimidate and frighten me…
Bloch: I don’t think you ever answered my Q… did Eliott Kline in response chase after that person and clothesline him?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and Mr. Kline later bragged that he gave that person 12 stitches, correct?
Spencer: i learned about that in this trial
Bloch plays a clip from a Richard Spencer YouTube appearance (PX-2565) for the jury:
Spencer is heard saying “after the guy did that one of the alt-right guys who was protecting us basically leveled him like a linebacker knocking out a lineback [laughs]…. it was pretty funny”
Another clip played from Spencer’s YouTube/podcast about the glitter bombing/Eliott Kline assault incident:
“Basically I was not punched, there was this report that I was punched again… no.. i got glittered, yeah, who cares…” – Spencer on podcast
Bloch: you claimed that the only thing different from Unite The Right to those prior events was the policing strategy, correct?
Richard Spencer: yes
Bloch shows a text Greg Conte sent Richard Spencer on July 23, 2017 : “Aww this is gay… looks like there’s about a 60-day wait time to get a concealed carry permit approved so I’m gonna miss any firefights at Charlottesville 🙁 ”
Michael Bloch: On July 28 you went to a conference in Tennessee for American Renaissance or AmRen, founded by Jared Taylor – Mr. Kessler was there and you spoked to him there about Unite The Right…?
Richard Spencer:… yes
Bloch: you also gave a talk at the AmRen conference?
Spencer: yes
Bloch plays a clip of the speech -it shows Richard Spencer promoting Unite The Right saying “it is going to be hugely dramatic, probably hugely traumatic for the liberal people of Charlottesville…”
Bloch: On August 6, a week after that, you had lunch with Christopher Cantwell… and you discussed Unite The Right…
Bloch shows an August 7 text from Chris Cantwell to Richard Spencer: “You got time for a phone call in a little while I wanna talk to you about this permit issue“
Spencer reply text to Cantwell: can you relay it to someone else…we must proceed as planned
Cantwell text to Spencer: “sounds like the plan just went up in smoke, how far do we wanna deviate from the plan seems to be the question..I’m willing to risk a lot for our cause including violence and incarceration, many in my audience would follow me there too but I wanna coordinate and make sure it’s worth it for our cause…“
Spencer’s next text replies: “it’s worth it, at least for me”
Bloch: would it be fair to say you had negative views of Wes Bellamy in the leadup to Unite The Right?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and did part of that have to do with the fact that he’s Black?
Spencer: …no…
Bloch shows Spencer and the jury a Tweet that Spencer posted with meme that shows Spencer as a character from Starship Troopers with Wes Bellamy’s face over a monster in a net as Spencer’s character says “it’s afraid”
Bloch: is this dehumanizing?
Spencer: yes it is dehumanizing bc he is depicted as a sci-fi monster but this is par for the course on social media…
Bloch: in this tweet, you specifically tagged Wes Bellamy…did you testify in deposition that the import of this image you tweeted on August 10 was that Wes Bellamy should be afraid of the upcoming rally in Charlottesville?
Spencer: I said that, yes
Bloch asks Spencer about the “Charlottesville Statement” manifesto he had been crafting to read at Unite The Right, Spencer says it was published August 11, was originally Augustus Invictus’ idea.
Bloch shows the jury the manifesto…
Bloch: the first sections are called “race”, “Jews” and “the ethnostate”… the section on Jews calls Jews “distinct from europeans.. specifically that jews are not white, correct?”
Spencer: yes
Bloch and Spencer go back and forth about whether or not Spencer’s language in the “ethnostate” section of the manifesto is code for the 14 words (it seems quite similar.)
Bloch pulls up an Aug 10, 2017 email Spencer sent to Augustus Invictus asking him “what do you think” w a draft copy of the ‘Charlottesville statement’ manifesto.
Bloch shows a draft portion where that section is titled “14”
Spencer: I think it’s expressing the same statement as the 14 words but it’s not code.. it is what it is
Bloch: none of the other sections are labeled with a number, right?
Spencer: right
Bloch is going over more parts of the manifesto, Spencer denies a part that talks about “blood” and “soil” is a reference to the nazi phrase “blood and soil”.
Bloch points out repeated references to “war” in the document, Spencer says war “is a concept that’s very powerful”
Bloch: would it be fair to say that this manifesto you published the night before Unite The Right is a white supremacist declaration of war?
Spencer: no… political campaigns are named after war campaigns…this is rhetoric that everyone uses and is poetic and powerful
Bloch: You stayed on August 11 in an AirBnB with Greg Conte and Matt Warner who was the chief of staff for Identity Evropa?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: there was a group text that was set up for the weekend of Unite The Right?
Spencer: show me
Bloch: is this a text that you received on August 11?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and on that text group is Augustus Invictus, Nathan Damigo Chris Cantwell, Michael Hill, Jason Kessler and some other # ?… everyone on this text is a leader of Unite The Right?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: that’s a text from Mr. Mosley to you?
Spencer: yes
The text from Mosley to Spencer on Aug 11 says “Nvm. I’ll just text you. We are canceling the after party for the general public but still doing one for leadership. and VIP.”
Text from Kessler to Spencer on August 11 at 5:28 PM : “Im sure you already know but leadership meeting tonight 7 PM in McIntyre Park“
Bloch: it’s fair to say Mr. Kessler regarded you as one of the leadership?
Spencer: perhaps
Bloch: you told the jury you were absent from every planning meeting… but you didn’t tell the jury that you sent Greg Conte to meetings on your behalf?
Spencer: I wouldn’t say that… Greg was very enthusiastic about security, and he attended that meeting
Bloch is reading a transcript from Spencer’s deposition where he agrees “yeah” when asked if Greg Conte attended Unite The Right ‘leadership meeting’ on his behalf and says Conte “reported back” to him about the meeting, including details re the torch rally
Bloch: about an hour before you were gonna go to the march, you sent an email to the NPI listserv..
Spencer: it’s a listserv I owned but Evan McLaren sent the emails
Bloch shows an email Spencer sent on August 11: “you’re saying someone else sent this email under your name?”
Spencer: correct
Bloch: so there were times that other people were acting on your behalf?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: this email is 7:54 PM on August 11… you wrote “as I write the stage is being set for a historic victory for our people and our movement in Charlottesville” and quotes the chant “You Will Not Replace Us”
Bloch quotes the email celebrating people taking “personal risk” and asks Spencer if he took part in the attacks on protesters just hours after this email is sent
Spencer says the part about “taking the field of battle” “is just rhetorical”, says he wasn’t involved in violence
Bloch: you then met at Nameless Field – Mr. Cantwell and Mr. Kessler were there…I wanna ask you about the torch march itself but first let’s get some context.. you graduated from the University of Virginia.. you’re aware it’s diverse and there’s an active Jewish community…
Bloch shows Kessler a map of UVA campus grounds including the areas where the torch rally gathered. and marched, ending at the Thomas Jefferson statue
Bloch is pointing out how there is a direct, short route from Nameless Field to the Jefferson statue but that the torch march instead took a circuitous route through UVA campus, including the “lawn” with college student residences
Bloch: the plan was for 100s of white nationalists. to march down the lawn chanting “jews will not replace us”within 10-15 feet of a residential area? Would you agree…this is likely to be intimidating to… students…?
Spencer: I’m sure they’d see it as… a powerful protest Bloch: you led the torch march, correct?
Spencer: no
Bloch shows the jury exhibit PX-2121 – a video of Spencer saying “I was at the lead, I was surrounded by my guys” – talking about the torch march
Bloch shows exhibit PX-3107, a text Jason Kessler sent On Aug 11 at 10:15 PM to Richard Spencer saying “come out front” – during the beginning of the torch march
Spencer: I was certainly at the front, we could quibble about who was leading…
Bloch: you at some point, with the torch marchers, got to the top of the steps of the rotunda looking down at the Thomas Jefferson statue.. and you could see that there were students encircling the statue?
Spencer: yes
Bloch shows a video of the torch march starting to descend the rotunda steps and approach the students around the Jefferson statue.
Bloch: you could see.. that there was nothing separating you and the students…? no barricades…?
Spender: yes
Bloch: you didn’t call the police
Spencer: no
Bloch: you didn’t decide to direct the torch march away from the students.. you decided to … surround them at the statue so they couldn’t get out?
Spencer: the idea was always to end up at the statue… there’s no objective to surround the statue…it happened bc there were counter-protesters surrounding the statute…
Bloch: the decision was made to walk down towards the students and surround them?
Spencer: the decision was made not to go elsewhere…the decision was made to go to the…statute…it’s clear that we ended up surrounding the students…
Bloch shows PX-2117, a video clip from the night of August 11
Richard Spencer: “yes, that’s me at the torch march” the video shows young men being excited to see Spencer – the camera man, referring to Spencer, says “this is why we’re here everybody”. The video also catches someone say “we need some more people to fill in this way to block these guys off” –
Spencer says “I did not hear that”
Bloch: the fact of the matter is… you surrounded them at the statue & wouldn’t let them out, is that true?
Spencer: they were surrounded, for a time… they eventually did leave
Bloch: you surrounded them at the statue and you would not let them out?
Spencer: for a time, yes
Bloch shows a tweet from Richard Spencer where he wrote “Fact Check: True” while quote-tweeting Emily Gorcenski’s tweet saying “They surrounded us at the statue, they wouldn’t let us out”
Bloch asks if the students were surrounded as an act of “dominance”, Spencer says “yes”
Bloch: is it true that you did not see any of the students do anything aggressive to the alt-right?
Spencer: i remember seeing evidence of pushing and shoving going on…who started it, I don’t remember…in terms of the plaintiffs I do not remember seeing the plaintiffs at all”
Bloch: do you agree that nonetheless, counter-protesters were injured? You heard a counter-protester crying for a medic?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: and you thought that was funny?
Spencer: i’m not sure
Bloch shows Spencer’s August 11 Periscope video where he smiles in a mocking voice while saying “I heard one of the antifa calling ‘medic, medic’
Bloch: you’re aware at least one of your codefendants was charged with criminal behavior from that night?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you testified that there was no violence on the night of the torch march, correct?
Spencer: if I said something like, there was no violence, that’s in comparison with some of the things that we saw on August 12
Judge Moon: let’s take a 20 minute recess now
Afternoon break
Richard Spencer is back in the witness stand, takes his mask off before wiping and scratching his forehead while fidgeting in his chair and looking down. Judge Moon isn’t back yet but most of the lawyers are
Judge Moon is back on the bench now – everyone else stands up as he calls the jury back in
Michael Bloch: Mr. Spencer, after what you observed at the Thomas Jefferson statue, you then climbed up on the statue and gave a victory speech?
Richard Spencer: I remember climbing up and saying some bold words… calling it a speech might be a bit much
Bloch plays a video clip that shows Spencer yelling “hail victory” (sieg heil in English) and “we own these streets” from on the statue- “We are risking our lives for our people..for our ancestors… you think an antifa can defeat our group?”
Bloch: you said “alt right, we own these streets, we occupy this ground, we won”, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: after this you went back to your AirBnB, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch shows a text Spencer received after the torch march from Daniel Friberg of Arktos Publishing: “Hi, Me, Chris and D’Marcus recently arrived at the inn where Evan stays… Congrats on…torchlit march“
Spencer agrees he replied “it was great”
Bloch shows Spencer’s periscope from that same night where he says “we surrounded them…we occupied space”
Bloch: you didn’t say anything in the video about ‘we should tone down the violence for tomorrow’ or anything, did you?
Spencer: I don’t know if I did or not
Bloch shows exhibit PX-3121, email from Spencer around 9 AM on August 12 to his National Policy Institute listserv. Spencer says that while his name is on it & “I take responsibility”, Evan Mclaren wrote it. The email says “this is only the prequel”, referring to the torch march.
Bloch shows a short clip of PX-2570, a video of Unite The Right on August 12, 2017 that shows Richard Spencer and associates walking into McIntire Park (staging, parking area for ppl riding to the main event) saying “hail victory, thanks for coming guys”, he is greeted w applause.
Bloch plays a portion of the same video that shows Richard Spencer talking with former KKK leader David Duke in McIntire Park – Duke is saying “what do you expect with Jews running your country?”
Bloch shows PX-2505, it’s a Tweet sent at 10:30 AM w a picture of Richard Spencer addressing a crowd at McIntire Park on August 12, 2017. Spencer claims to be sure it’s a pic from later in the day based on the shirt he was wearing.
Bloch: at some point you made your way over to Emancipation Park.. you’ve claimed you were concerned you might get attacked at this rally… yet prior to this rally you had no communication with law enforcement?
Spencer: I communicated with law enforcement in Alexandria about where I was going… at no point did I interact with law enforcement in Charlottesville
Bloch: nobody from your security communicated with the police?
Spencer: I’m not saying that… I can’t say that
Bloch: In your deposition, you were asked about your security detail communicating with the police and you said “no”
Judge Moon is getting upset at Bloch in front of the jury asking why he is “repeating” questions – Bloch says he has to point out the difference between Spencer’s in-court answer and his deposition answer. Moon continues scolding Bloch, some of the most anger he’s shown at trial.
Bloch: you wrote “I spoke to local police and the state police as I was being expelled from Emancipation Park… I asked police how to leave and they pointed to Market Street…”
Spencer: the way I understood the Q was did I have any preliminary discussions with police… I couldn’t say what Greg Conte was doing or what other people were doing
Spencer is giving a lot of comments outside the scope of questions he’s asked, saying Bloch is “nitpicking”
Bloch: you screamed at police clearing Emancipation Park that they’re “going to have to drag you out of there” and you were maced by the police, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you tweeted encouraging your followers to leave town, you told the jury that you did this to avoid further violence… you said you did this because it was time to ‘get out of dodge’ but you didn’t ‘get out of dodge’ correct?
Spencer: well i didn’t stay in downtown Cville
Bloch: you went back to your AirBnB and made another video for your followers?
Spencer: we went to Daniel Friberg’s motel
Bloch: you made another video 13 mins after your tweet telling people to disperse?
Spencer: if you say so
Bloch plays Spencer’s periscope video from after the rally was cleared – Spencer has his shirt off and calls Charlottesville’s black then -Vice Mayor Wes Bellamy a “house you-know-what” saying he is the “pet” of white people
Bloch: when you say “house you-know-what” what is it that referring to?
Spencer: i think it’s the house n-word
Bloch keeps playing the video which shows a shirtless, sunburnt Richard Spencer saying “we are gonna come back here often… we are absolutely never backing down”
Bloch: you sent that video out in a tweet entitled “A message for Charlottesville” at 12:51 PM, 13 mins after you sent the “disperse” tweet?
Spencer: those are not contradictory messages in the slightest…
Bloch: after you tweeted that video you then went back to McIntire Park…?
Spencer: maybe before that, I’m not exactly positive on that chronology…if you have timestamps then that’s fair… look, I’m just simply saying I’m not positive…
Bloch: did you go to Mcintire park after an unlawful assembly had been declared?
Spencer: yes
Bloch shows a video of Spencer speaking at Mcintire saying things like “the idea that I would ever back down…we are never backing down… now it’s not gonna be over…”
Bloch shows exhibit PX-3143 – a text Jason Kessler sent to Richard Spencer around 2:16 PM on August 12 saying “we’re still meeting at the afterparty location at 5 PM… leadership and essential people only” PX-3092 is a 6:38 PM
8/12/17 text from Eli Mosley to Spencer: “Basically when you get here grab a drink say a couple words while everyone cheers and then we’re gonna head upstairs with the people that matter and talk about a press release.Kyle Bristow is suggesting that we do it”
Bloch: in the immediate aftermath of what happened… you and the other leaders of the event initially decided to coordinate a message to the press..?
Spencer: we wanted to tell our side of the story and having a clear and consistent message is the best way to do that
Bloch: initially Mr. Kessler was to be involved in that?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you testified today that you don’t like Mr. Kessler?
Spencer: I’m afraid so
Bloch: in the days after Unite The Right you made a ‘tactical decision’ to separate yourself from Jason Kessler?
Spencer: yes
Bloch shows a text Spencer sent to Greg Conte & Evan McLaren on 8/13/17 at 9:42 AM reading “Maybe a strategy is to separate ourselves from Kessler?”
Bloch shows PX-3502, a text from Spencer to Kessler on 8/13/17 at 10:23 AM reading “You’re not listening to leadership.”
Spencer then worked with Nathan Damigo and Greg Conte to come up with a set of “talking points” so that everyone in their group could “stay on message”: “Police broke up peaceful rally… forced us into dangerous space with antifa”
Bloch: you became aware of a lawsuit filed against you and all organizers of the rally on August 15?
Spencer: yes
Bloch shows PX-3080, a text Spencer received from Evan McLaren on 8/15/17: “Big lawsuit against you and us. All organizers included.”
Bloch: Evan McLaren is a friend of yours, correct?
Spencer: he still is
Bloch: he was present at your planning meetings for Charlottesville, correct?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: he seems to have regarded you as an organizer?
Spencer: I was the most famous man in the alt-right…
Bloch: you then became aware of this lawsuit on October 12, 2017?
Spencer: that sounds right
Bloch: is it fair to say that you immediately then began coordinating with your codefendants?
Spencer:.. I’m sure i coordinated in some fashion with someone…
Bloch shows PX-3137 – a text from Richard Spencer to Matt Heimbach on October 12, 2017: “Don’t say anything. Establish legal defense fund”
Bloch shows PX-1393, a text to Spencer from Jason Kessler on October 12, 2017 that reads: “We need to have coordinated response. Enough with the infighting”
Bloch shows exhibits PX-3077 and PX-3519 – these are texts to Richard Spencer from alt-right member Colton Merwin and responded to: Colton Merwin: “Myself and Jamie Troutman have been talking over and we think a black-white (alt-right and black nationalist) alliance might be necessary to win over normies and have plausible deniability of racism…” Spencer replied : “I agree and I like it”
Bloch: you agree there’s nothing in the text from Colton Merwin to suggest this is for any reason other than plausible deniability…?
Spencer: that’s Colton’s reasoning
Bloch: you said what you planned to do at Unite The Right was speak… and that you hope it was peaceful… is is true that none of these things happened? …It was incredibly violent, one woman was killed, dozens were maimed…?
Spencer: yes
Bloch: you told the jury that you have regrets.. that you think Charlottesville was a disaster… that sounds like the right thing to say in court, doesn’t it?
Spencer: it’s also the truth
Bloch: you were interviewed hours after Heather Heyer was killed… you said it was “a huge moral victory in terms of a show of force”… in another interview you said “it was an amazing event because people were willing to occupy space”
Bloch plays a video exhibit that features Richard Spencer talking on the GoyTalk podcast saying “Charlottesville remains an amazing event in terms of all these people working in parallel.. being together, being willing to occupy space…boldness and power”
Bloch: you said the “sense of togetherness and boldness and power” was “amazing”?
Spencer: that is still true especially about Friday night… I have complicated feelings about Charlottesville…a ‘moral victory’ is another word for a loss…[goes on a while longer]…
Bloch: isn’t it true that the reason why you thought Charlottesville was amazing was bc you accomplished exactly what you set out to do?
Spencer: Absolutely not
Bloch: no further questions
Cross-exam of Spencer beginning now… First to cross-examine Spencer is James Kolenich, lawyer for Jason Kessler, Nathan Damigo and Identity Evropa
Kolenich: you testified that Eliott Kline was ‘often’ at your residence in summer 2017 – why was he there?
Spencer: Kline was very energetic, he wanted to be talking to everyone and be everyone’s friend and I think he accomplished that at least for a short period of time….
Kolenich: You told Mr. Bloch he provided bodyguard services for you at one point?
Spencer: In April 2017…. I don’t think he was a bodyguard during the Charlottesville event
Kolenich: when he provided bodyguard services to you was he also a member of IE?
Spencer: yes..he was not paid to be a bodyguard… it was volunteer
Kolenich: are you aware that in 2017 Identity Evropa was the largest alt-right group in the USA?
Spencer: that wouldn’t surprise me
Kolenich: if I told you it was in excess of 1000 would you have any reason to doubt that?
Spencer: that sounds a bit much but idk
Kolenich: didn’t you just tell me you didn’t know the inner workings of Identity Evropa?
Spencer: that’s what i’m telling you…just surprised at that number
Kolenich: why would you be surprised if you don’t know their inner workings?
Kolenich: who is Greg Conte?
Spencer: a friend of mine, we had podcasts and worked on things
Kolenich: was he a member of Identity Evropa?
Spencer: i don’t know
Kolenich: did you tell Mr. Bloch that you sent Mr. Conte to a leadership meeting in Mcintire park?
Spencer: i don’t think I said I ‘sent’ him…
Kolenich refers to Spencer’s deposition where he says Conte would “report back” to him
Kolenich: could you explain how it is that Greg Conte has responsibilities towards you?
Spencer: he was enthusiastic about things like security… so he was in charge of that kind of stuff for me… he would act a lot on his own… was a silent type
Kolenich: let me see if I understand-Mr. Kline provided bodyguards services for you bc he’s ‘enthusiastic’ about being around you, and Mr. Conte is reporting back to you bc he’s ‘enthusiastic’…were you not paying these men to provide services to you?
Spencer: i was paying Greg
Kolenich: what is your source of income?
Spencer: In 2017, donations to the various things I would do
Kolenich: alt-right donations?
Spencer: yes
Kolenich: what, if you know was Identity Evropa’s source of income?
Spencer: dues…
Obejction, Q is withdrawn
Kolenich: did Eliott Kline or Eli Mosley ever talk to you about Identity Evropa’s source of income?
Spencer: I’m sure he talked to me about it at some point…it’s a membership organization, it’s fair to assume the income is based on dues
Kolenich: was Evan McLaren a member of Identity Evropa?
Spencer: I think so
Kolenich: what did he do for you?
Spencer: he was executive director of NPI, we did podcasts together
Kolenich: is it true that your credit card was once rejected for a $4 tab at a coffee house?
Spencer: i think that happened in 2018… I don’t think it was actually rejected… I remember that became a meme on Twitter… I’m not sure it was actually rejected but yeah
Kolenich: is it not true that during summer 2017 you were trying to grow your own dues-based organization within the alt-right?
Spencer: no
Kolenich: did you send Eliott Kline, Greg Conte or Evan McLaren and tell them to join the group Identity Evropa?
Spencer: no
Kolenich: do you know why Nathan Damigo pushed Eliott Kline out of Identity Evropa?
Spencer: no
Kolenich: have you ever attempted through your relationships with Eliott Kline, Greg Conte, or Evan McLaren, to take over leadership of Identity Evropa?
Spencer: no, I was wondering what you were getting at, that’s cute.
Spencer is grinning in the witness seat
Kolenich plays the May 13, 2017 ‘Charlottesville 1.0’ after party video with the sieg heil chant, asks Spencer to point out Nathan Damigo. Spencer says he sees someone who looks like Damigo but isn’t sure if it’s him or not.
Kolenich: did you not tell Mr. Bloch that Mr. Damigo was in that video?
Spencer: I didn’t say he was in that video, I said he was in that party
Kolenich: is it your testimony to this jury that in the run-up to Unite The Right you were not sending people into Identity Evropa to try to take it over?
Spencer: yes
Kolenich goes in more on the “Spencer taking over IE” theory here
Kolenich is done cross-examining Spencer.
Dillon Hopper (former Vanguard America leader) is on Zoom asking if he can ask Richard Spencer questions, Judge Moon says he doesn’t know any way that can be properly done.
David Campbell, lawyer for James Fields, asks Spencer if he ever knew Fields, Spencer says he only ever learned of him from news coverage after the fact.
Next to cross-examine Richard Spencer is Bryan Jones, lawyer for League of the South and Michael Hill and Michael Tubbs of the League of the South.
Jones: you coined the phrase alt-right, when did that happen?
Spencer: when i was involved in the Mencken Club in or around 2009
Jones is soliciting Spencer’s agreement with his factually dubious claim that “white nationalism” and “southern nationalism” are “distinct from each other”, Spencer lists League of the South as an example of “southern nationalism”
Jones asks if he saw Michael Hill or Michael Tubbs at the torch march, he says he didn’t.
Jones asks if Hill or Tubbs were involved in planning the torch march, Spencer says he has no idea.
Bryan Jones is done w his cross examination of Richard Spencer now.
Next up to cross-examine Richard Spencer is his co-defendant Chris Cantwell, who, like Spencer, is representing himself Pro Se in this case.
Cantwell: there are 4 text messages which I’d like to bring up… Cantwell is showing a group chat text from Augustus Invictus to Nathan Damigo, Cantwell, Michael Hill & Jason Kessler on 5:56 PM August 11 – body of the message just says “negative.” Another text in the same group is sent by Jason Kessler and says “Getting a lot of request from press. If you’re interested in speaking to them get in contact with me and let me know” Cantwell – plaintiffs asked you if everybody on that group chat was a leader – did you hear my opening statement? Did you hear me deny I was a leader-
Bloch: objection
Cantwell: please describe my leadership role in Unite The Right
Spencer: you were a personality who was involved… you were set to speak… I don’t know the degree to which you helped organize…
Cantwell: to the best of your knowledege did I end up speaking to journalists at the Unite The Right rally?
Cantwell: I’m sure you did
Cantwell pulls up the video from the June 2017 DC alt-right “free speech” rally at the Lincoln Memorial – Cantwell circles himself in the video and has Spencer agree with the observation that he’s not joining in on the “moldylocks” chant (“for whatever that’s worth” -Spencer)
Cantwell asks plaintiffs to pull up his phone records w Spencer shown earlier
Spencer starts to say unprompted, “this reminds me of something”, Judge cuts him off
Cantwell is going through the list of his texts w Spencer – asks him if he remembers their August 7 2017 text where Cantwell was trying to get Spencer on the phone.
Cantwell: would it be fair to say you sort of blew me off there?
Spencer: yes
both laugh Cantwell has Spencer read more of his texts including the one from Cantwell saying “I’m willing to risk a lot for our cause…”
Cantwell: Would you say risk is something that is inherent in our line of work?
Spencer: absolutely, yes
Judge Moon interrupts to end court for the day, Cantwell cross-examining Spencer will resume tomorrow at 9 AM.
Unite The Right On Trial:
Rush transcripts: Day 1 | Day 2 | Day 3 | Day 4 | Day 5 | Day 6 | Day 7 | Day 8 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 11 | Day 12 | Day 13 | Day 14 | Day 15 | Day 16
Read Unicorn Riot's live tweets from trial proceedings - Day 1 | Day 2 | Day 3 | Day 4 | Day 5 | Day 6 | Day 7 | Day 8 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 11 | Day 12 | Day 13 | Day 14 | Day 15 | Day 16 | Day 17 | Day 18 | Day 19
